On 30 Apr, 19:39, David of Broadway
wrote:
It's illogical to reduce the cost of a single trip from £3.50 or £2.00
to £1.80 or £1.00? It's one extra transfer and only a few extra minutes.

TfL aren't interested in enforcing routings. Therefore all journeys
are assumed to be by the most logical route, and charged accordingly.

It's also a roundabout way of making sure orbital journeys are charged
proportionally to their length (ie long journeys are assumed via Z1 so
cost more), which would otherwise be impossible with radial zones.

U

On 30 Apr, 19:42, David of Broadway
wrote:
Very interesting. Examples?

I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a

U

On Apr 30, 9:04 pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 30 Apr, 19:39, David of Broadway
wrote:

It's illogical to reduce the cost of a single trip from £3.50 or £2..00
to £1.80 or £1.00? It's one extra transfer and only a few extra minutes.

TfL aren't interested in enforcing routings. Therefore all journeys
are assumed to be by the most logical route, and charged accordingly.

It's also a roundabout way of making sure orbital journeys are charged
proportionally to their length (ie long journeys are assumed via Z1 so
cost more), which would otherwise be impossible with radial zones.

U



The point about routings not being enforced got me to thinking about a
related issue. If you stay in the system within the time limit, does
it matter how many actual journeys it takes to go between the two
stations?

A thoetical example:

You work at Canary Wharf and are going to a party near Mudchute. You
stock up with heavy bottles at Tescos at Canary Wharf.

To avoid the long walk at Mudchute with the heavy bottles, you stay on
to Island Gardens, cross the platform and arrive back at Mudchute on
the other side.

Should you have touched in and out at Island Gardens and been charged
for two journeys, or is it all right because you stayed in the system
for less than two hours? How long would it take for the reader at
Island Gardens not to just treat it as a double touch? What would the
latest word for guard see if he/she checked tickets on the second
journey? Just that it had been touched in somewhere? Would he/she be
instructed to care?

Mr Thant wrote:
On 30 Apr, 19:42, David of Broadway
wrote:
Very interesting. Examples?

I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a

Ah! I read that when it was first posted, found it very interesting
back then, and promptly forgot about it.

And if this is all perfectly legal, then the next logical question is:

Say I'm in Z6 and I have some time to kill. If I ride into Z1 and back
out to the station I started at (within 2 hours), the Oyster system
won't know that I ever left Z6 and will charge me the intra-Z6 fare.
But is such a ride legal? What if I have a Z2-6 Oyster-based
Travelcard? (It wouldn't be legal on a Z2-6 paper Travelcard without an
extension ticket.)
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Mr Thant wrote:
On 30 Apr, 19:39, David of Broadway
wrote:
It's illogical to reduce the cost of a single trip from £3.50 or £2.00
to £1.80 or £1.00? It's one extra transfer and only a few extra minutes.

TfL aren't interested in enforcing routings. Therefore all journeys
are assumed to be by the most logical route, and charged accordingly.

But in this particular case (NHG to Acton Town moreso than NHG to
Heathrow), I would argue that the Ealing Broadway routing is the more
logical one, given the fare differential. The time differential is minimal.

It's also a roundabout way of making sure orbital journeys are charged
proportionally to their length (ie long journeys are assumed via Z1 so
cost more), which would otherwise be impossible with radial zones.

Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On 30 Apr 2007 09:47:08 -0700, Mr Thant wrote:
On 30 Apr, 16:37, David of Broadway
wrote:
Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?

Both are charged as via Zone 1 according to the fares finder:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...07/farefinder/

Highbury & Islington to Canary Wharf (or most other DLR stations)
is an interesting one. It gives an Oyster fare of 1.00 at any time
but don't all likely routes involve zone 1?

David

On Tue, 1 May 2007 09:42:04 +0100, David Walters wrote:

Both are charged as via Zone 1 according to the fares finder:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...07/farefinder/

Highbury & Islington to Canary Wharf (or most other DLR stations)
is an interesting one. It gives an Oyster fare of 1.00 at any time
but don't all likely routes involve zone 1?

I'd agree. The only reason I can think of is so that holders of Z23
Travelcards on Oyster don't get charged a £1.50 excess if they travel
via the NLL to Stratford.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:47:16 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

Very interesting. Examples?

I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a

Ah! I read that when it was first posted, found it very interesting
back then, and promptly forgot about it.

And if this is all perfectly legal, then the next logical question is:

Say I'm in Z6 and I have some time to kill. If I ride into Z1 and back
out to the station I started at (within 2 hours), the Oyster system
won't know that I ever left Z6 and will charge me the intra-Z6 fare.
But is such a ride legal?

I don't think the system would like you finishing at the same station
you started at - I imagine either the gates would reject your card on
exit (this happens if you enter and then try to leave immediately), or
you'd be charged £8 for two unresolved journeys (one starting at the
station, the other finishing there). But let's suppose instead that
you end your journey one station from where you started, and walk
home.

There seems to be nothing in the TfL Conditions of Carriage
specifically saying you can't do this. They say: "You can use any of
our services if you have [...] sufficient money on your Oyster card to
pay as you go." The only requirements are to touch in at the start of
the journey and touch out at the end. You are liable to a Penalty Fare
or prosecution if (and, I assume, only if) you cannot produce "an
Oyster card showing a record of the start of your trip".

The main sticking point is this:
"10.2. If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or
Oyster card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this
happens, we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the
ticket, or refund any money or deposit paid for the Oyster card."

So it's worth keeping your PAYG balance low if doing this, in case you
run into an unsympathetic ticket inspector.

What if I have a Z2-6 Oyster-based
Travelcard? (It wouldn't be legal on a Z2-6 paper Travelcard without an
extension ticket.)

Probably the same situation, although this time you should have no
problem exiting at the same station you started your journey.

On 30 Apr 2007 13:43:58 -0700, MIG wrote:

The point about routings not being enforced got me to thinking about a
related issue. If you stay in the system within the time limit, does
it matter how many actual journeys it takes to go between the two
stations?

A thoetical example:

You work at Canary Wharf and are going to a party near Mudchute. You
stock up with heavy bottles at Tescos at Canary Wharf.

To avoid the long walk at Mudchute with the heavy bottles, you stay on
to Island Gardens, cross the platform and arrive back at Mudchute on
the other side.

Should you have touched in and out at Island Gardens and been charged
for two journeys, or is it all right because you stayed in the system
for less than two hours? How long would it take for the reader at
Island Gardens not to just treat it as a double touch? What would the
latest word for guard see if he/she checked tickets on the second
journey? Just that it had been touched in somewhere?

He/she would see that you had touched in at Canary Wharf.

Would he/she be instructed to care?

An interesting question...

Going from Mudchute to Island Gardens and back doesn't involve leaving
Z2, so there shouldn't be an issue with the fare possibly being
higher, and the Tube/DLR don't have a prohibition on doubling-back. I
think the only problem might be if the ticket inspector thought you
had gone out of the station at Island Gardens, done some stuff, and
re-entered, and were trying to get two journeys for the price of one.

asdf wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:47:16 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

Very interesting. Examples?
I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a
Ah! I read that when it was first posted, found it very interesting
back then, and promptly forgot about it.

And if this is all perfectly legal, then the next logical question is:

Say I'm in Z6 and I have some time to kill. If I ride into Z1 and back
out to the station I started at (within 2 hours), the Oyster system
won't know that I ever left Z6 and will charge me the intra-Z6 fare.
But is such a ride legal?

I don't think the system would like you finishing at the same station
you started at - I imagine either the gates would reject your card on
exit (this happens if you enter and then try to leave immediately), or
you'd be charged £8 for two unresolved journeys (one starting at the
station, the other finishing there).

Really? What if you enter the station and then realize that you forgot
something important at home or in the office?

BART (in the San Francisco area) explicitly penalizes this sort of usage
with a so-called excursion fare for exiting from the same station you
entered at, which is IIRC higher than the highest normal fare in the
system. Of course, flat-fare systems neither know nor care -- if I had
lots of money to throw away, I could spend all day in New York entering
and exiting and reentering and reexiting the same station.

But let's suppose instead that
you end your journey one station from where you started, and walk
home.

There seems to be nothing in the TfL Conditions of Carriage
specifically saying you can't do this. They say: "You can use any of
our services if you have [...] sufficient money on your Oyster card to
pay as you go." The only requirements are to touch in at the start of
the journey and touch out at the end. You are liable to a Penalty Fare
or prosecution if (and, I assume, only if) you cannot produce "an
Oyster card showing a record of the start of your trip".

The main sticking point is this:
"10.2. If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or
Oyster card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this
happens, we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the
ticket, or refund any money or deposit paid for the Oyster card."

So it's worth keeping your PAYG balance low if doing this, in case you
run into an unsympathetic ticket inspector.

But that begs the question, IMO. Is the above behavior fraudulent?

(An obvious example of fraud would be using an Oyster-based Travelcard
and not touching out at a station outside your zones where the gates are
open or where there are no gates at all. But if you simply turn around
and return to your zones without exiting the station, it's not so clear
to me.)
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA