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Old May 7th 07, 03:55 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default Willesden- Clapham Junction

Does anybody know the reason that the Willsden Junction- Clapham Junction
train takes so long? I know there is a voltage change between Willesden &
Olympia, but the train crawls on this section & often stops two or three
times. Between Olympia & West Brompton the speed is reasonable but after
that the train crawls to Clapham Junction, the other day a jackdaw overtook
the train & it was walking beside the track.
Also was there a plan to build a station at Chelsea Harbour at one time?


--
Eric



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Old May 7th 07, 04:12 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default Willesden- Clapham Junction


"Eric" wrote in message
...
Does anybody know the reason that the Willsden Junction- Clapham Junction
train takes so long? I know there is a voltage change between Willesden &
Olympia, but the train crawls on this section & often stops two or three
times. Between Olympia & West Brompton the speed is reasonable but after
that the train crawls to Clapham Junction, the other day a jackdaw
overtook the train & it was walking beside the track.
Also was there a plan to build a station at Chelsea Harbour at one time?


The new station is going to be called Imperial Wharf - it actually made it
onto the maps in 2005, but has since gone again - I believe its all tied in
with ongoing planning permissions for the housing which will allow it to be
paid for by the developer...

Paul


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Old May 7th 07, 06:51 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default Willesden- Clapham Junction

On Mon, 7 May 2007, Eric wrote:

Does anybody know the reason that the Willsden Junction- Clapham
Junction train takes so long? I know there is a voltage change between
Willesden & Olympia, but the train crawls on this section & often stops
two or three times. Between Olympia & West Brompton the speed is
reasonable but after that the train crawls to Clapham Junction,


I'm no expert, but it's my understanding this is a signalling thing - what
with everything being very complicated at the CJ end, there's lots of
slack time allowed for fitting in with all the other trains etc.

the other day a jackdaw overtook the train & it was walking beside the
track.


That's because they were recently upgraded under the PPP contract, and as
such are now operating at 15% greater speeds.



tom

--
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Old May 7th 07, 07:41 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default Willesden- Clapham Junction

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 7 May 2007, Eric wrote:

the other day a jackdaw overtook the train & it was walking beside
the track.


That's because they were recently upgraded under the PPP contract,
and as such are now operating at 15% greater speeds.


You mean 115% greater speeds. That's because they're supposed to *fly*
over the tracks to inspect them, but they're working to rule at the
moment, as the new method restricts their ability to eat on the job.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

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Old May 8th 07, 09:04 AM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default Willesden- Clapham Junction

On May 7, 7:51 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 7 May 2007, Eric wrote:
Does anybody know the reason that the Willsden Junction- Clapham
Junction train takes so long? I know there is a voltage change between
Willesden & Olympia, but the train crawls on this section & often stops
two or three times. Between Olympia & West Brompton the speed is
reasonable but after that the train crawls to Clapham Junction,


I'm no expert, but it's my understanding this is a signalling thing - what
with everything being very complicated at the CJ end, there's lots of
slack time allowed for fitting in with all the other trains etc.

the other day a jackdaw overtook the train & it was walking beside the
track.


That's because they were recently upgraded under the PPP contract, and as
such are now operating at 15% greater speeds.



tom

--
Gin for the mind, kebabs for the body, sushi for the soul



I dont think it's particularly complicated at the CJ end.
The Willesden line doesn't cross any other line used by passenger
trains.
And it runs from a single dedicated platform and into a single line.
So can't see the signalling being that complicated.
The only thing you might have are the odds goods train.

A.



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Old May 9th 07, 01:19 AM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default Willesden- Clapham Junction

Well all i can say is that you picked a bad day to travel on this
line. I m a Guard on the Willesden to Claphams and can tell you that
most of the time things hardly happen. You will find that the reason
why trains are usually late is because of the stupid timings awarded
to both Southern and Silverlink from Network Rail and its previous
incumbents Railtrack. If you looked very carefully at the timetable a
Southern service is due to leave Clapham at 03 past the hour from
platform 16 and a Silverlink service is due to leave at 05 past each
hour from platform 2. This is rather pathetic as the Southern service
is always late. A typical 05 service from Clapham is like this:
Leave Clapham right time, stop at first signal to allow late running
southern service to past, then follow the southern on single yellows
normally stopping at the signal protecting West Brompton Stn, and
again stopping short of Kensington Olympia Stn, then continue at a
slow pace untill being stopped just before the pantogarph and third
rail change over point, then stop to change over pantograph and third
rail continue to Willesden Junction. where after all that you will
still arrive on time as their is so much slack in the timings, that is
why when the trains are on time they sit at stations for a couple of
minutes.

Most of the time the train is slow is because it is following another
train and is being driven under cautionary aspects.


keithy

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Old May 9th 07, 07:06 AM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
MIG MIG is offline
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Default Willesden- Clapham Junction

On May 9, 2:19 am, keithy wrote:
Well all i can say is that you picked a bad day to travel on this
line. I m a Guard on the Willesden to Claphams and can tell you that
most of the time things hardly happen. You will find that the reason
why trains are usually late is because of the stupid timings awarded
to both Southern and Silverlink from Network Rail and its previous
incumbents Railtrack. If you looked very carefully at the timetable a
Southern service is due to leave Clapham at 03 past the hour from
platform 16 and a Silverlink service is due to leave at 05 past each
hour from platform 2. This is rather pathetic as the Southern service
is always late. A typical 05 service from Clapham is like this:
Leave Clapham right time, stop at first signal to allow late running
southern service to past, then follow the southern on single yellows
normally stopping at the signal protecting West Brompton Stn, and
again stopping short of Kensington Olympia Stn, then continue at a
slow pace untill being stopped just before the pantogarph and third
rail change over point, then stop to change over pantograph and third
rail continue to Willesden Junction. where after all that you will
still arrive on time as their is so much slack in the timings, that is
why when the trains are on time they sit at stations for a couple of
minutes.

Most of the time the train is slow is because it is following another
train and is being driven under cautionary aspects.

keithy




This is a good example of where the journey planners treat stations as
a single point, with a number of minutes for any interchange. This is
particularly odd where the number of minutes is high and the station
is obviously large (or three adjacent stations sharing a name, as with
CJ).

So if you ask for, say, Twickenham to Olympia, the planner will direct
you to the 03 departure despite it being more than two minutes walk to
the furthest possible side of Clapham Junction, rather than go to the
adjacent platform for the 05.

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Old May 9th 07, 08:51 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default Willesden- Clapham Junction


MIG wrote
On May 9, 2:19 am, keithy wrote:
Well all i can say is that you picked a bad day to travel on this

[...]
incumbents Railtrack. If you looked very carefully at the timetable

a
Southern service is due to leave Clapham at 03 past the hour from
platform 16 and a Silverlink service is due to leave at 05 past

each
hour from platform 2. This is rather pathetic as the Southern

service
is always late.


This is a good example of where the journey planners treat stations

as
a single point, with a number of minutes for any interchange. This

is
particularly odd where the number of minutes is high and the station
is obviously large (or three adjacent stations sharing a name, as

with
CJ).


Last time we discussed journey planners it was stated that while the
German Railways planner treated stations (including British stations)
that way the National Rail planner didn't.

There is a table on p5 of the SWT timetable "Connection times" which
sez 5 minutes at most stations but allow 10 minutes at Clapham Junction
except for Southern services, when it is 5 minutes.

If something like this table is used it may have the effect you want

So if you ask for, say, Twickenham to Olympia, the planner will

direct
you to the 03 departure despite it being more than two minutes walk

to
the furthest possible side of Clapham Junction, rather than go to the
adjacent platform for the 05.


Suggest you try this on both planners. Try Epsom or Banstead or Horsham
to Olympia which could be a Southern to Southern interchange as a
further test.

Note that only a train arriving between xx53 and xx00 might cause the
xx05 departure to be offered since if the connection time rules allow
the planner will always select the earliest scheduled arrival.

--
Mike D
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Old May 13th 07, 06:58 AM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default Willesden- Clapham Junction


"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
|
| MIG wrote
| On May 9, 2:19 am, keithy wrote:
| Well all i can say is that you picked a bad day to travel on this
| [...]
| incumbents Railtrack. If you looked very carefully at the timetable
| a
| Southern service is due to leave Clapham at 03 past the hour from
| platform 16 and a Silverlink service is due to leave at 05 past
| each
| hour from platform 2. This is rather pathetic as the Southern
| service
| is always late.
|
| This is a good example of where the journey planners treat stations
| as
| a single point, with a number of minutes for any interchange. This
| is
| particularly odd where the number of minutes is high and the station
| is obviously large (or three adjacent stations sharing a name, as
| with
| CJ).
|
| Last time we discussed journey planners it was stated that while the
| German Railways planner treated stations (including British stations)
| that way the National Rail planner didn't.
|
| There is a table on p5 of the SWT timetable "Connection times" which
| sez 5 minutes at most stations but allow 10 minutes at Clapham Junction
| except for Southern services, when it is 5 minutes.
|
| If something like this table is used it may have the effect you want
|
| So if you ask for, say, Twickenham to Olympia, the planner will
| direct
| you to the 03 departure despite it being more than two minutes walk
| to
| the furthest possible side of Clapham Junction, rather than go to the
| adjacent platform for the 05.
|
| Suggest you try this on both planners. Try Epsom or Banstead or Horsham
| to Olympia which could be a Southern to Southern interchange as a
| further test.
|
| Note that only a train arriving between xx53 and xx00 might cause the
| xx05 departure to be offered since if the connection time rules allow
| the planner will always select the earliest scheduled arrival.
|

One problem is that the journey planners may not know what platform the
trains go from. The only platforms at Clapham Junction which are input by
the Train Planners are the ones for SWT (and that only started happening a
few years ago when the new Customer Information System (CIS) was installed)
and platforms 16 and 17. The rest of the Southern services are unplatformed
in the Working Timetable (WTT). It is not necessary to put the platform
information in the WTT because there is very little flexibility in the
station approaches - the platform a train uses is largely governed by the
line it approaches on, so (with a few exceptions) the signallers do not need
to know which platform it has to be signalled into.

If you look at the departure posters at Clapham Junction, however, you will
see that all the Southern destinations also have departure platform numbers.
This is because yours truly (who edits these posters for his sins) downloads
the signalbox simplifier for the Southern route and, by a bit of
jiggery-pokery in "Excel", determines the platform numbers by the routings
given for the signallers at the previous junctions. The CIS uses the same
method to produce the Southern platform information (and also do the
platforming at any other station it is installed where the platforming is
not put in the WTT).

In case you are wondering, the thousands of platform numbers that appear on
those posters are not all typed in by hand. Those in the Working Timetable
are drawn by the production software and there are various cunning ways of
arranging for the rest to appear once known!

However, Clapham Junction is no less than four separate stations according
to the Train Service Data Base [P2; P3-6; P7-11; P12-17], and it is possible
that this information could be used. But you must remember that the Journey
Planning software is generic - it has to work for all reasonably possible
station layouts. To introduce too much complication risks doing what has
been done to so many other softare systems - the orignal function is spoilt
by all the bugs you have introduced trying to get the new features to work.
--
- Yokel -
oo oo
OOO OOO
OO 0 OO
) ( I ) (
) ( /\ ) (

"Yokel" now posts via a spam-trap account.
Replace my alias with stevejudd to reply.


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Old May 14th 07, 08:50 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default Willesden- Clapham Junction

On May 12, 11:58 pm, "Yokel" wrote:

However, Clapham Junction is no less than four separate stations according
to the Train Service Data Base [P2; P3-6; P7-11; P12-17], and it is possible
that this information could be used. But you must remember that the Journey


When one thinks about this, it does have a certain logic. Clapham
Junction probably covers considerably more acreage than the three West
Hampsteads, including the space between them.

Adrian



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