On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:03:57 +0100, "Stimpy"
wrote:



But what if your exit road is clear when you go into the box, but
gets
blocked by oncoming cars turning left and then witing in a queue?
:-)

I don't think the Highway Code provides advice as to best course of
action to take under that particular set of circumstances. A recent
posting established exactly what the Code does advise...


Yes - just read that. But it doesn't (as you say) cover that
eventuality :-) The reason I said it was because exactly that
scenario happend to me on Sunday.

"K" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:03:57 +0100, "Stimpy"
wrote:



But what if your exit road is clear when you go into the box, but
gets
blocked by oncoming cars turning left and then witing in a queue?
:-)

I don't think the Highway Code provides advice as to best course of
action to take under that particular set of circumstances. A recent
posting established exactly what the Code does advise...


Yes - just read that. But it doesn't (as you say) cover that
eventuality :-) The reason I said it was because exactly that
scenario happend to me on Sunday.

In this case, oncoming traffic should consider your place taken in the queue
already.
i.e. The person turning left into the last slot should leave that space for
you.

Usually traffic is moving slowly when this happens, so its just a matter of
hoping that the last person to turn left is aware of this fact.
Fat chance with the drivers around my area.

Regards, Darren

"K" wrote in message
...

But what if your exit road is clear when you go into the box, but gets
blocked by oncoming cars turning left and then witing in a queue? :-)

The law makes clear that this is allowed (if you are turning right),
even though the highway code does not.

In article m, Martin
Underwood writes
It seems to me that this advice is rather naive, because it assumes that
the only impediment to the "car in front of you that's also waiting to
turn right" is the flow of oncoming traffic - which will eventually
stop. What if the real reason that the car in front can't turn right is
a traffic queue on the road to the right. In that event, both of you
will be "marooned" in the middle of the box junction when the lights
change :-(

Isn't the situation that you describe covered by the "are only stopped from
doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right"
clause - the implication being that you must not enter the box if anything
*else* prevents you completing the turn - for example the fact that traffic
on your right is backed-up as far as the box.

I think you need a crystal ball. Imagine you are the first of the right-
turning cars. The road to the right is clear (at least one space to turn
into). But the oncoming traffic prevents you turning. And then an
oncoming car turns left, and fills up that space you used to have. Are
you suddenly a criminal? The same for the next car back, observing (if
indeed the sight-line is unobstructed) that there are spaces for two
cars in the road to the right, initially.
--
"It used to be that what a writer did was type a bit and then stare out of the
window a bit, type a bit, stare out of the window a bit. Networked computers
make these two activities converge, because now the thing you type on and the
window you stare out of are the same thing" - Douglas Adams 28/1/99.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:27:58 -0400, Roland Perry
wrote:

In article , Dr Ivan D. Reid
writes
Is it? IWUTI that your exit had to be clear *before* venturing into
the box

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road
(see Other road markings section). You MUST NOT enter the box until your
exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when
you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming
traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.
-- Highway Code

It seems to me that this advice is rather naive, because it assumes that
the only impediment to the "car in front of you that's also waiting to
turn right" is the flow of oncoming traffic - which will eventually
stop. What if the real reason that the car in front can't turn right is
a traffic queue on the road to the right. In that event, both of you
will be "marooned" in the middle of the box junction when the lights
change :-(

Then you are stopped from doing so by traffic on the right of you
blocking your turning path - and they shouldn't be waiting in a box
junction.

--Nick.
--
http://www.blackstar.co.uk/scp/id/what - Want videos?
Fax: +44 (0) 7974 984182 - icq: 9235201 - Hayn on dal

In article , Nick
writes
It seems to me that this advice is rather naive, because it assumes that
the only impediment to the "car in front of you that's also waiting to
turn right" is the flow of oncoming traffic - which will eventually
stop. What if the real reason that the car in front can't turn right is
a traffic queue on the road to the right. In that event, both of you
will be "marooned" in the middle of the box junction when the lights
change :-(

Then you are stopped from doing so by traffic on the right of you
blocking your turning path - and they shouldn't be waiting in a box
junction.

Yes, but the road to the right might have been clear when you first
entered the box.

However, I suppose if we look closely, the offence is *entering* a box
junction at the worn time. Not being sat in a legally entered box
junction feeling like a prat and blocking the traffic...
--
"It used to be that what a writer did was type a bit and then stare out of the
window a bit, type a bit, stare out of the window a bit. Networked computers
make these two activities converge, because now the thing you type on and the
window you stare out of are the same thing" - Douglas Adams 28/1/99.

On 13 Aug 2003 15:16:06 -0700, (Robin Smith)
wrote:


I have reviewed the thread on "Bus Lane Penalties" and noticed that
where (temporary) bus lanes are not legally registered, bus lane
penalties can be avoided. As a matter of legal interest, I am
wondering whether there are any similar legal loopholes with respect
to box junction penalties? For example, the road in question is
reasonably well worn, and I am wondering whether there are any
requirements around the painting on the box junctions? Or, as with
recent speed camera loopholes, are there any specific requirements for
the signs associated with box junctions?


The requirement for a Traffic Order for box junctions was removed in
1994/5.


Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:51:15 +0100, "Peter Crosland"
wrote:

They have the same status as a STOP sign and there does not need to be any
other for them to take effect.

STOP signs have to be authorised by the Department for Transport.


Box junctions do not.


Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:30:11 +0100, "Peter Crosland"
wrote:

In the sense that it is a road sign. Parking restrictions and bus lanes
require statutory notices to be published to allow them to be enforced.



Rather more specifically, parking controls and bus lanes require a
Traffic Management Order (under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984,
as amended) to be made.

Box junctions do not.


I'm sure our tame barrister on uk.transport.london can fill this bit
in.

Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:05:34 GMT, "Martin Underwood"
wrote:


What usually happens is that when you (the right-turner) see that the gap on
the right is big enough to take your car, you start to accelerate. As you
are doing so, the left-turning car nips in ahead of you. This leaves you
stranded in the box, not in a nice neat facing-ahead-but-about-to-turn-right
position but immediately behind the car that's nipped in ahead of you,
blocking the road for any other oncoming traffic :-( [So easy to draw a
diagram; so hard to describe in words!]

The offence is entering the box, not being in it. Your exit was
presumably clear when you entered the box so you should be OK
(.....provided the PC believes you).
--
Peter Lawrence