Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:18:05 GMT, Richard J.
wrote in
:
Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote:

Paul, you do realise that this comes over to the rest
of the pax as gloating?

Are you coming to the drinks on Thursday night?

Are we all invited?

If you read the right newsgroup...

Ivan, you do realise that this comes over to readers of this newsgroup
as gloating?

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:13:10 GMT, Richard J.
wrote in :
Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:18:05 GMT, Richard J.
wrote in
:
Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote:

Paul, you do realise that this comes over to the rest
of the pax as gloating?

Are you coming to the drinks on Thursday night?

Are we all invited?

If you read the right newsgroup...

Ivan, you do realise that this comes over to readers of this newsgroup
as gloating?

Touché!

--
Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________ CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University. ] Room 40-1-B12, CERN
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".

"Mizter T" wrote in message
oups.com...

As one of "the rest of the pax" I'll just say that it doesn't sound
like gloating to me. I think it's fair enough that those who work for
a transport organisation to get free travel on that organisation's
services as a perk of the job, just as I'd expect someone who works
for a telecoms company to get a reduced rate subscription or someone
who works for a retailer to get discounts etc.

Free ... discount ... discount

Doesn't seem to be the same to me.

Not that I mind TfL staff travelling free; compared to the cost of the
Oyster bribery fares it's a raindrop in the ocean of subsidy of London's
public transport.

Dave.

Dave Liney wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message
oups.com...

As one of "the rest of the pax" I'll just say that it doesn't sound
like gloating to me. I think it's fair enough that those who work
for a transport organisation to get free travel on that
organisation's services as a perk of the job, just as I'd expect
someone who works for a telecoms company to get a reduced rate
subscription or someone who works for a retailer to get discounts
etc.

Free ... discount ... discount

Doesn't seem to be the same to me.

Not that I mind TfL staff travelling free; compared to the cost of
the Oyster bribery fares it's a raindrop in the ocean of subsidy of
London's public transport.

What are you talking about? London has probably the least subsidised
public transport of any comparable capital city.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:41:17 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

The gradual moves over several years to adopt the LU
farescale on the line north of Queens Park show it can be done. The
only complication might be how NR pricing works - IIRC Harrow and
Wealdstone is a compilation point (might have the wrong term) for NR
fares and I think this is why PAYG is accepted at H&W but not LU cash
fares as that would mean using the LU fare for other pricing purposes.

This used to be the case, but it changed on 2 Jan this year. LU cash
fares are now valid to Harrow & Wealdstone (and all the way to Hatch
End).

Steve Dulieu wrote:
Just in case any of those of us with TFL staff or nominee passes missed
it, an item appeared on the intranet today stating that from SOT
11/11/07 all TFL staff and nominee passes will be valid on all the bits
of that we're nicking off Silverlink, WLL, NLL & GoBLin. Planning my
sight-seeing trip to the great wall of Shepherds Bush even as I type:-)

On a similar, but not quite as "generous" note, the November 2006
edition of the Travel Facilities Guide for Safeguarded Active and
Retired TOC Employees (i.e. those who were employed prior to 1st April
1996), features a list of sections of LU/DLR where staff can use a box
or status pass for free travel.

It's mostly the usual interavailable routes, but here's the full list,
as given in the Guide:

quote

*Metropolitan and District Lines:*

(i) Moorgate and Kings Cross;
(ii) Baker Street and Watford, Chesham or Amersham, but not
intermediately between Baker Street and Harrow-on-the-Hill;
(iii) Paddington and Notting Hill Gate - Circle Line, for through
journeys between Paddington and East Acton or westwards but not
intermediately or at Notting Hill Gate;
(iv) Paddington (Suburban) and Hammersmith (Met.);
(v) Shoreditch and New Cross or New Cross Gate;
(vi) Tower Hill and Upminster (except Aldgate East);
(vii) Putney Bridge and Wimbledon;
(viii) Turnham Green and Richmond;
(ix) Earl's Court and Kensington (Olympia).

*Northern Line:*

Moorgate to Mill Hill East or High Barnet via Archway, but not
intermediately
Kings Cross to Highgate, except Kentish Town

*Central Line:*

(i) Liverpool Street and Epping or Hainault, via Woodford or Newbury Park;
(ii) Ealing Broadway or West Ruislip and White City and in the case of
through journeys between East Acton or westwards and Paddington also
between White City and Notting Hill Gate, but not intermediately between
White City and Notting Hill Gate or at Notting Hill Gate.

*Bakerloo Line:*

Paddington and Harrow & Wealdstone

*Jubilee Line:*

Stratford to Canning Town

*Piccadilly Line:*

Finsbury Park and Kings Cross but not intermediately.

*Victoria Line:*

Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington and Kings Cross.

*Waterloo and City:*

Waterloo and Bank.

*Docklands Light Railway:*

Tower Gateway and Limehouse.

In addition, Residential Passes (made out with the appropriate
availability) are valid on the above lines with the exception of:

*Hammersmith & City Line:*

Valid only between Paddington (Suburban) and Westbourne Park and not
valid at Royal Oak.

*District Line:*

Valid between Tower Hill and Upminster but not intermediately between
Tower Hill and Bow Road, except at Aldgate East when shown on the pass.

*Northern Line:*

Not valid between Moorgate and Kings Cross or Kentish Town

*Central Line:*

Not valid at Bethnal Green or Mile End or between Ealing Broadway and
North Acton

/quote

Cheers,

Barry

On 14 Oct, 22:27, asdf wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:41:17 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
The gradual moves over several years to adopt the LU
farescale on the line north of Queens Park show it can be done. The
only complication might be how NR pricing works - IIRC Harrow and
Wealdstone is a compilation point (might have the wrong term) for NR
fares and I think this is why PAYG is accepted at H&W but not LU cash
fares as that would mean using the LU fare for other pricing purposes.

This used to be the case, but it changed on 2 Jan this year. LU cash
fares are now valid to Harrow & Wealdstone (and all the way to Hatch
End).

Yeah - I noticed that earlier today when looking at the PDF of the
current fares booklet [1] and compared it to the 2006 one.

This and other things all demonstrate that Silverlink Metro has
increasingly fallen under the influence of TfL in the period before
they take over - a bit like how Hong Kong was falling under the
influence of the PRC whilst the power of the British Governor waned
before the official handover date.

Not, that is to say, that TfL is like the PRC... I've gifted that one
to critics of Mayor Ken really haven't I ?!


Back on topic, I wanted to look and see whether there were any fares
anomalies on this route - e.g. a H&W to Euston fare costing less than
a Kenton to Euston fare - but I've already run into problems with
conflicting information. The NR Journey Planner suggests an SDS would
be £3.80, TheTrainline shows two SDS results at £3.80 and £4, whilst
the Avantix Traveller software shows it as £4.

Then of course one remembers that all London rail fares are supposedly
calculated on a zonal basis now [2]. However, it would seem, on this
line, that the LU single cash fare of £4 takes precedence over any
London zonal rail fare.

But then I end up with yet more conflicting information. Avantix, NR
JP and Trainline all agree that a Queens Park to Euston SDS is £4, and
also all agree that a CDR is counter-intuitively cheaper at £3.40.
Where this amount comes from I've no idea - a return LU fare would be
£8 (2x£4) though off-peak on LU a paseenger would be sold an off-peak
Day Travelcard, whilst the NR zonal fare table says a zones 1+2 CDR is
£3.

Looking at the Kilburn High Road to Euston fares Avantix, NR JP and
Trainline all agree again on this - an SDS is £2.40 and a CDR is £3.40
(same as the Queens Park to Euston CDR). But again neither of these
fares is what it should be under the London zonal rail fares table - a
zones 1+2 SDS should be £2.10, a CDR £3.

All of which leaves me scratching my head in a state of total
confusion and wondering just what possible logic is being applied to
generate these fares, and also - given the different results for the
H&W fare - wondering whether I can trust any of the information I get
from any of these sources!


-----
[1] TfL Fares and Tickets 2007 (PDF)
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-to-fares-and-
tickets-0709.pdf

[2] National Rail - London Zonal Fares
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...onalFares.html

On 15 Oct, 00:55, Mizter T wrote:
Then of course one remembers that all London rail fares are supposedly
calculated on a zonal basis now [2]. However, it would seem, on this
line, that the LU single cash fare of £4 takes precedence over any
London zonal rail fare.

From [2]:
''On some routes between certain stations the Train Companies share
their routes with the London Underground. On these routes Underground
prices (including Pay as You Go) are charged. This will not change."

But then I end up with yet more conflicting information. Avantix, NR
JP and Trainline all agree that a Queens Park to Euston SDS is £4, and
also all agree that a CDR is counter-intuitively cheaper at £3.40.
Where this amount comes from I've no idea - a return LU fare would be
£8 (2x£4) though off-peak on LU a paseenger would be sold an off-peak
Day Travelcard, whilst the NR zonal fare table says a zones 1+2 CDR is
£3.

You might want to look at this thread I started:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....1f26b9ff027f3a

Basically I was told TfL are already setting the fares for Silverlink,
and they've decided not to apply the zonal fares rules to themselves,
for no obvious reason.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On 15 Oct, 01:26, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 15 Oct, 00:55, Mizter T wrote:

Then of course one remembers that all London rail fares are supposedly
calculated on a zonal basis now [2]. However, it would seem, on this
line, that the LU single cash fare of £4 takes precedence over any
London zonal rail fare.
From [2]:

''On some routes between certain stations the Train Companies share
their routes with the London Underground. On these routes Underground
prices (including Pay as You Go) are charged. This will not change."

Thanks - yes, it would help if I read the documents that I referred
to!

The fact that the LU fare now takes predominance is I think a fairly
new development - this post of mine from 2005 shows there was a bit of
a messy situation at Walthamstow Central when it came to fares (a
situation that I strongly suspect was mirrored at Seven Sisters and
Tottenham Hale):
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....cfe556118559f4

Such situations don't appear to exist anymore as LU fares now rule the
roost. Can anyone say exactly since when this has been the case?

Also from that page, in fact just above the text you quoted is this:

-----
What Train Companies will be covered by this change?

All Train companies operating National Rail services that stop between
any two stations in the London Fare Zones area will offer these fares.
They a- Chiltern Railways; c2c; First Capital Connect; First Great
Western; Heathrow Connect; 'one' Railway; Silverlink County; Southern;
Southeastern; South West Trains.
-----

Whilst Silverlink County gets a mention, Silverlink Metro is notable
by its absence...


But then I end up with yet more conflicting information. Avantix, NR
JP and Trainline all agree that a Queens Park to Euston SDS is £4, and
also all agree that a CDR is counter-intuitively cheaper at £3.40.
Where this amount comes from I've no idea - a return LU fare would be
£8 (2x£4) though off-peak on LU a paseenger would be sold an off-peak
Day Travelcard, whilst the NR zonal fare table says a zones 1+2 CDR is
£3.

You might want to look at this thread I started:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....owse_thread/th...

Basically I was told TfL are already setting the fares for Silverlink,
and they've decided not to apply the zonal fares rules to themselves,
for no obvious reason.

U


Thanks, that at least clears up a little bit of the mystery!

I just wonder whether it's some incredibly complex attempt to mesh LU
fares into the Silverlink Metro fare scale. Though of course that
doesn't really make a lot of sense either, given that all LU cash
fares are now either £3 or £4. Perhaps these Silverlink Metro fares
are merely the same as they were (perhaps plus a bit for inflation)
before January '07, when London zonal rail fares were introduced. As
you say, it's all a bit inexplicable really.

I guess that TfL is going to roll out LU cash fares on London
Overground at the fares change in January '08, so as to shift people
over onto Oyster PAYG - though that is only a guess. I'm not sure
whether so doing would mess up any of the rest of the rail fares
ecosystem - I can't immediately see any knock-on problems if this were
to happen.

Change of subject (sort-of) - I have an intriguing scenario to share
with you all regarding Oyster PAYG fares on the North London Line, but
that will have to wait for another day.

On 15 Oct, 02:17, Mizter T wrote:
Whilst Silverlink County gets a mention, Silverlink Metro is notable
by its absence...

It wasn't until somebody complained...

I guess that TfL is going to roll out LU cash fares on London
Overground at the fares change in January '08, so as to shift people
over onto Oyster PAYG - though that is only a guess. I'm not sure
whether so doing would mess up any of the rest of the rail fares
ecosystem - I can't immediately see any knock-on problems if this were
to happen.

There's a note on this in the last board meeting minutes:
"TfL London Rail and TfL Fares and Ticketing are considering how best
to integrate Overground fares into the TfL fares structure from 11
November, the start of the London Rail Concession. An Oyster
promotional fare is proposed, designed to get passengers used to
Oyster Pay As You Go on a National Rail service that previously did
not accept this form of payment prior to 11 November."
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-papers(1).pdf

Hopefully we'll get some more detail from the next meeting, which is
next week.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London