Hello!

Just recently noticed the prepay oyster readers (as in the stand-alone
on platform ones for when the ticket office area is closed and
passengers enter through an open gate) have appeared, albeit covered
up at the moment, at Crayford station in Z6 which is a Nat Rail
station.

Obviously this means that they are extending the payg system to
National Rail in London, but the million dollar question is will my
"Bus Operator" staff pass be valid on these services once Pay as you
go is active - as it has become on the new London Overground out to
watford etc?

Many Thanks,

Tom

I'm not pre-privatisation (joined in 2006), and I work for a bus
company other than East Thames.

Never actually used an overground service, however whenever I tap my
oyster on a tube ticket machine it is displayed as something like:

O/E Bus Operator
Zones 1-9 + Watford Junction

So I naturally assume that means I can use it there! Just thought that
if I had been given those PAYG services that the pass might be valid
wherever PAYG is if you get my drift. Maybe best to contaft TfL staff
travel themselves.

On May 28, 11:42*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Thu, 28 May 2009 15:21:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Hello!

Just recently noticed the prepay oyster readers (as in the stand-alone
on platform ones for when the ticket office area is closed and
passengers enter through an open gate) have appeared, albeit covered
up at the moment, at Crayford station in Z6 which is a Nat Rail
station.

Obviously this means that they are extending the payg system to
National Rail in London, but the million dollar question is will my
"Bus Operator" staff pass be valid on these services once Pay as you
go is active - as it has become on the new London Overground out to
watford etc?

There has been no info whatsoever published about if or how staff
facilities will be handled on National Rail PAYG. * If you are a bus
company employee that does not have privilege ticket facilities as a
result of being a former LT employee (prior to rail privatisation) I
would doubt very much if there will be any extension of validity. *Even
for those of us with NR privilege facilities I'd be surprised if the
TOCs mirror what LUL has done in providing a priv rate PAYG facility -
they'll probably prefer that people queue at ticket offices!

I'd have thought the TOCs might quite like the idea of getting priv
rate folks away from clogging up their ticket queues - you obviously
think otherwise! Would there be any possibility of activating the TfL
staff Oyster passes of qualifying employees for priv rate PAYG on NR -
or are they programmed in such a way so as to preclude them from ever
being used as an 'electronic purse' for PAYG purposes?


Overground concessions are funded by TfL - I wasn't aware they'd been
extended to bus employees unless you work for East Thames Buses?

I thought everyone with a TfL staff pass got free travel on all TfL
services, including the entire London Overground network?

On 29 May, 00:04, Mizter T wrote:
On May 28, 11:42*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:



On Thu, 28 May 2009 15:21:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Hello!

Just recently noticed the prepay oyster readers (as in the stand-alone
on platform ones for when the ticket office area is closed and
passengers enter through an open gate) have appeared, albeit covered
up at the moment, at Crayford station in Z6 which is a Nat Rail
station.

Obviously this means that they are extending the payg system to
National Rail in London, but the million dollar question is will my
"Bus Operator" staff pass be valid on these services once Pay as you
go is active - as it has become on the new London Overground out to
watford etc?

There has been no info whatsoever published about if or how staff
facilities will be handled on National Rail PAYG. * If you are a bus
company employee that does not have privilege ticket facilities as a
result of being a former LT employee (prior to rail privatisation) I
would doubt very much if there will be any extension of validity. *Even
for those of us with NR privilege facilities I'd be surprised if the
TOCs mirror what LUL has done in providing a priv rate PAYG facility -
they'll probably prefer that people queue at ticket offices!

I'd have thought the TOCs might quite like the idea of getting priv
rate folks away from clogging up their ticket queues - you obviously
think otherwise! Would there be any possibility of activating the TfL
staff Oyster passes of qualifying employees for priv rate PAYG on NR -
or are they programmed in such a way so as to preclude them from ever
being used as an 'electronic purse' for PAYG purposes?



Overground concessions are funded by TfL - I wasn't aware they'd been
extended to bus employees unless you work for East Thames Buses?

I thought everyone with a TfL staff pass got free travel on all TfL
services, including the entire London Overground network?

Thats what my line of thinking was, that the passes were a "bottomless
purse" or such for any purchases that one could usually use Pay as you
go for. Just need to know if this will exclude the NR services when
they are PAYG enabled!

On May 29, 12:24*am, wrote:

On 29 May, 00:04, Mizter T wrote:

On May 28, 11:42*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Thu, 28 May 2009 15:21:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Hello!

Just recently noticed the prepay oyster readers (as in the stand-alone
on platform ones for when the ticket office area is closed and
passengers enter through an open gate) have appeared, albeit covered
up at the moment, at Crayford station in Z6 which is a Nat Rail
station.

Obviously this means that they are extending the payg system to
National Rail in London, but the million dollar question is will my
"Bus Operator" staff pass be valid on these services once Pay as you
go is active - as it has become on the new London Overground out to
watford etc?

There has been no info whatsoever published about if or how staff
facilities will be handled on National Rail PAYG. * If you are a bus
company employee that does not have privilege ticket facilities as a
result of being a former LT employee (prior to rail privatisation) I
would doubt very much if there will be any extension of validity. *Even
for those of us with NR privilege facilities I'd be surprised if the
TOCs mirror what LUL has done in providing a priv rate PAYG facility -
they'll probably prefer that people queue at ticket offices!

I'd have thought the TOCs might quite like the idea of getting priv
rate folks away from clogging up their ticket queues - you obviously
think otherwise! Would there be any possibility of activating the TfL
staff Oyster passes of qualifying employees for priv rate PAYG on NR -
or are they programmed in such a way so as to preclude them from ever
being used as an 'electronic purse' for PAYG purposes?

Overground concessions are funded by TfL - I wasn't aware they'd been
extended to bus employees unless you work for East Thames Buses?

I thought everyone with a TfL staff pass got free travel on all TfL
services, including the entire London Overground network?

Thats what my line of thinking was, that the passes were a "bottomless
purse" or such for any purchases that one could usually use Pay as you
go for. Just need to know if this will exclude the NR services when
they are PAYG enabled!


Hi Tom, sorry I think we've got our wires crossed a little bit!

I don't think for a second that TfL Staff Passes will be valid on
National Rail (NR) at all whatsoever, even when Oyster PAYG is
(eventually) introduced on NR - indeed, there are already NR routes
where one can use Oyster PAYG but cannot use a TfL Staff Pass - e.g.
Rainham to Barking, West Drayton to West Ealing [1].

(I am no expert at all on TfL Staff Passes so I'm unclear on whether
they are valid on NR routes where interavailable ticketing applies,
e.g. Stratford to Liverpool Street.)

When I was talking about the possibility of TfL Staff Passes being
enabled for an 'electronic purse' facility, I was thinking of those
TfL staff who get priv rate travel on NR and whether they could pay
for that priv rate travel using their TfL Staff Pass - their TfL Staff
Pass in effect acting as a normal Oyster card albeit one that affords
the holder priv rate fares as opposed to full rate fares.

Unfortunately bus company employees (apart from ex-LT employees from
pre-rail privatisation days) don't get priv rate fares on NR.

When Oyster PAYG eventually comes to Crayford, I'm afraid that you'll
have to pay the full whack fare along with everyone else - and it also
seems quite likely that single Oyster PAYG fares on NR won't actually
be any cheaper than their paper/printed equivalent.

Just to be super-clear about this, when I referred to "London
Overground" I was specifically referring to those mainline railway
services that are branded as such and are now the responsibility of
TfL - all of these routes are however north of the river, see (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...etwork-map.pdf


-----
[1] The National Rail routes on which Oyster PAYG can be used are
explained here - also see the accompanying PDF map:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx

I don't think for a second that TfL Staff Passes will be valid on
National Rail (NR) at all whatsoever, even when Oyster PAYG is
(eventually) introduced on NR - indeed, there are already NR routes
where one can use Oyster PAYG but cannot use a TfL Staff Pass - e.g.
Rainham to Barking, West Drayton to West Ealing [1].

(I am no expert at all on TfL Staff Passes so I'm unclear on whether
they are valid on NR routes where interavailable ticketing applies,
e.g. Stratford to Liverpool Street.)


That I don't know either, but the reverse scenario is covered in

http://www.atoc.org/rst/_download/ru...20SGActive.pdf

Staff Travel Cards (dated appropriately), All Stations National
Rail "Status" Passes and Regional Status Passes (as appropriate) are
valid
for free travel on London Underground/Docklands Light Railway as
specified below:
Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City and District & Circle Lines:
(i) Moorgate and Kings Cross;
(ii) Euston Square and Watford, Chesham or Amersham, but not
intermediately between Baker Street and Harrow-on-the-Hill;
(iii) Paddington and Notting Hill Gate - Circle Line, for through
journeys
between Paddington and East Acton or westwards but not
intermediately or at Notting Hill Gate;
(iv) Paddington (Suburban) and Hammersmith (H&C);
(v) Shoreditch and New Cross or New Cross Gate;
(vi) Tower Hill and Upminster (except Aldgate East);
(vii) Putney Bridge and Wimbledon;
(viii) Turnham Green and Richmond;
(ix) Earl’s Court and Kensington (Olympia).

Northern Line:
Moorgate to Mill Hill East or High Barnet via Archway, but not
intermediately
Kings Cross to Highgate, except Kentish Town

Central Line:
(i) Liverpool Street and Epping or Hainault, via Woodford or Newbury
Park.
(ii) Ealing Broadway or West Ruislip and White City and in the case of
through journeys between East Acton or westwards and Paddington
also between White City and Notting Hill Gate, but not intermediately
between White City and Notting Hill Gate or at Notting Hill Gate.

Bakerloo Line:
Paddington and Harrow & Wealdstone.

Jubilee Line:
Stratford to Canning Town

Piccadilly Line:
Finsbury Park and Kings Cross but not intermediately.
Victoria Line:
Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington and Kings Cross.

Waterloo and City:
Waterloo and Bank.

Docklands Light Railway:
Tower Gateway and Limehouse.

Also, Residential Passes (made out with appropriate availability) are
valid
on the above lines with the exception of:
Hammersmith & City Line:
Valid only between Paddington (Suburban) and Westbourne Park and not
valid at
Royal Oak.

District Line
Valid between Tower Hill and Upminster but not intermediately between
Tower Hill
and Bow Road, except at Aldgate East when shown on the pass.

Northern Line
Not valid between Moorgate and Kings Cross or at Kentish Town

Central Line
Not valid at Bethnal Green or Mile End or between Ealing Broadway and
North
Acton

Most of these seem to be historical artefacts, and only match the
interoperability rules for fare-paying passengers in a few cases.

On May 29, 12:04*am, Mizter T wrote:
On May 28, 11:42*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:


On Thu, 28 May 2009 15:21:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Hello!

Just recently noticed the prepay oyster readers (as in the stand-alone
on platform ones for when the ticket office area is closed and
passengers enter through an open gate) have appeared, albeit covered
up at the moment, at Crayford station in Z6 which is a Nat Rail
station.

Obviously this means that they are extending the payg system to
National Rail in London, but the million dollar question is will my
"Bus Operator" staff pass be valid on these services once Pay as you
go is active - as it has become on the new London Overground out to
watford etc?

There has been no info whatsoever published about if or how staff
facilities will be handled on National Rail PAYG. * If you are a bus
company employee that does not have privilege ticket facilities as a
result of being a former LT employee (prior to rail privatisation) I
would doubt very much if there will be any extension of validity. *Even
for those of us with NR privilege facilities I'd be surprised if the
TOCs mirror what LUL has done in providing a priv rate PAYG facility -
they'll probably prefer that people queue at ticket offices!

I'd have thought the TOCs might quite like the idea of getting priv
rate folks away from clogging up their ticket queues - you obviously
think otherwise! Would there be any possibility of activating the TfL
staff Oyster passes of qualifying employees for priv rate PAYG on NR -
or are they programmed in such a way so as to preclude them from ever
being used as an 'electronic purse' for PAYG purposes?

Given that there are no modifications planned to ticket issuing
systems at TOC stations as part of PAYG expansion I don't see how the
TOCs could move to a siutation where you could simply load cash on to
a priv rate PAYG card. I also suspect that they'd prefer to have the
cash in their hands via their own offices rather than wait for later
settlement but that's just my cynical view.

It is already the case that PAYG Priv Oysters can be obtained but
solely through TfL staff travel and then via LU ticket offices. The
emphasis is very much on this helping NR employees, who have
entitlement to priv rate travel on LUL, avoid the need to queue at LUL
ticket offices for each journey. A priv rate daily cap also applies as
per one day capping for full fare passengers.

I believe that LUL employees can obtain a priv PAYG card for use on
those sections of NR line already covered by standard PAYG. In some
cases that is a genuine addition but in others there is already
interavailability on a standard staff pass. It is not possible to open
a purse on Staff Passes as I believe they are encoded in such a way
that prevents it. It's the same issue as with Freedom Passes (when
they weren't available 24 hours a day) when people wanted PAYG added
for peak time travel.

I'm not fully au fait with the validity of bus operator passes but I
didn't think they all covered all of the TfL network - possibly the
whole network for former LT bus drivers who went to private owners at
the time of privatisation. I believed there were lower levels of
validity - especially for the tube and DLR - where bus company
employees joined after the sell off. It's possible that a different
scheme analogous to the standard TfL Staff Pass has been put in place
in order to reduce differentials in pay and benefits for all bus
drivers in London.

Overground concessions are funded by TfL - I wasn't aware they'd been
extended to bus employees unless you work for East Thames Buses?

I thought everyone with a TfL staff pass got free travel on all TfL
services, including the entire London Overground network

You need to be careful here as there are all sorts of TfL Staff Passes
- staff, dependents, retired, bus company employee etc.

For the standard pass you are correct in your statement and yes
Overground is included. It will be interesting to see if that also
reaches down to West Croydon and Crystal Palace when ELLX opens -
here's hoping. We also get a fair chunk of the normal
interavailability with NR (e.g. Stratford - Liv St, Fenchurch St -
Upminster) but there are differences emerging as PAYG expands. We
don't get Marylebone - West Ruislip nor Kentish Town - West Hampstead
on Thameslink. It's all horribly complicated which is why it will be
very useful indeed if we are able to have a priv PAYG that works on
all lines throughout the zonal area. I'd certainly have one and I'd
almost certainly use NR services far more - having to queue for
tickets or worse being completely unable to purchase a priv ticket
from machines and then either paying full fare or ****ing about trying
to get a ticket at a fare closest to the priv fare is just a
nightmare. Hence why I rarely use

In a completely ideal world we'd have one that worked across the
entire rail system but that presumes an ITSO card based system and
validators installed at all NR stations or else conductors / guards
being able to deal with cards on pay trains. Having recently made a
number of bus journeys in towns and cities outside London I really,
really wanted a smartcard that could work on all of them rather than
having to fork out cash every single time.

--
Paul C
via Google

On May 29, 8:55*am, plcd1 wrote:

For the standard pass you are correct in your statement and yes
Overground is included. It will be interesting to see if that also
reaches down to West Croydon and Crystal Palace when ELLX opens -
here's hoping. *We also get a fair chunk of the normal
interavailability with NR (e.g. Stratford - Liv St, Fenchurch St -
Upminster) but there are differences emerging as PAYG expands. *We
don't get Marylebone - West Ruislip nor Kentish Town - West Hampstead
on Thameslink. *It's all horribly complicated which is why it will be
very useful indeed if we are able to have a priv PAYG that works on
all lines throughout the zonal area. *I'd certainly have one and I'd
almost certainly use NR services far more - having to queue for
tickets or worse being completely unable to purchase a priv ticket
from machines and then either paying full fare or ****ing about trying
to get a ticket at a fare closest to the priv fare is just a
nightmare. Hence why I rarely use NR services in and around London.

Always helps to finish a sentence before pressing send - ahem!

Paul C

In message
,
Mizter T writes
I don't think for a second that TfL Staff Passes will be valid on
National Rail (NR) at all whatsoever, even when Oyster PAYG is
(eventually) introduced on NR - indeed, there are already NR routes
where one can use Oyster PAYG but cannot use a TfL Staff Pass - e.g.
Rainham to Barking, West Drayton to West Ealing [1].

(I am no expert at all on TfL Staff Passes so I'm unclear on whether
they are valid on NR routes where interavailable ticketing applies,
e.g. Stratford to Liverpool Street.)

Yes they are. There are parts of the national rail network which have
grandfather rights of some sort:

Amersham - Marylebone
Stratford - Liverpool Street
Finsbury Park - Moorgate (via Drayton Park only)
Kentish Town - Elephant & C/London Bridge/Moorgate
Fenchurch Street - Upminster
Euston - Watford Jct.

are all valid.

When I was talking about the possibility of TfL Staff Passes being
enabled for an 'electronic purse' facility, I was thinking of those TfL
staff who get priv rate travel on NR and whether they could pay for
that priv rate travel using their TfL Staff Pass - their TfL Staff Pass
in effect acting as a normal Oyster card albeit one that affords the
holder priv rate fares as opposed to full rate fares.

Unfortunately bus company employees (apart from ex-LT employees from
pre-rail privatisation days) don't get priv rate fares on NR.

As someone who joined LU after priv days, I would like to see the
facility to have a purse (in addition to the staff travel) which would
then be deducted from in the normal way for national rail journeys. At
the moment, my only option is to carry a second 'proper' Oyster card.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Mizter T wrote

Just to be super-clear about this, when I referred to "London
Overground" I was specifically referring to those mainline railway
services that are branded as such and are now the responsibility of
TfL - all of these routes are however north of the river, see (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...etwork-map.pdf


Bzzt !

Richmond and Clapham Junction are NOT north of the River.

--
Mike D