"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:


"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in
view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

That doesn't necessarily follow at all. If you drew a map of the
Metropolitan line without showing the Chiltern route, would that allow an
inference to be drawn about PAYG availability on Chiltern?

Paul

On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:32:40 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:


"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:


"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in
view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

That doesn't necessarily follow at all. If you drew a map of the
Metropolitan line without showing the Chiltern route, would that allow an
inference to be drawn about PAYG availability on Chiltern?

An inference is not always a certainty either way (and it depends on
the actual purpose of such a map). However, the information so far
published refers specifically to the "North London Railway" which does
not include the Southern franchise to/from Watford Junction. AFAIAA
that franchise is already a specific exemption from PAYG and appears
to remain so in the absence of further advice of any change.

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Peter Masson wrote:

As it is, if you have to make several journeys by bus and/or tube in a
day, Oyster PAYG is what you want, but add just one National Rail
journey on which Oyster PAYG is not accepted, and you need a paper ODTC
- but if you hold a Railcard you may want the paper ODTC anyway (but
only at weekends if it is a Network Card), even if you are not going to
use National Rail.

How about if you could use pre-pay to buy an ODTC, and the way it worked
is that it just charged you enough to take you up to your cap. Then you
could roam around on PAYG, and convert to paper if you decided you wanted
a go on a train.

The process might also nullify the accumulated journeys on the card, to
avoid people fraudulently getting lots of free travelcards from one
oyster. Or it could print the travelcard saying "only valid with Oyster
card number such-and-such".

tom

--
If it ain't broke, open it up and see what makes it so bloody special.

On 7 Nov, 17:10, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:32:40 -0000, "Paul Scott"





wrote:

"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:

"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in
view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

That doesn't necessarily follow at all. If you drew a map of the
Metropolitan line without showing the Chiltern route, would that allow an
inference to be drawn about PAYG availability on Chiltern?

An inference is not always a certainty either way (and it depends on
the actual purpose of such a map). However, the information so far
published refers specifically to the "North London Railway" which does
not include the Southern franchise to/from Watford Junction. AFAIAA
that franchise is already a specific exemption from PAYG and appears
to remain so in the absence of further advice of any change.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Presumably the specific exemption for Oyster PAYG on Southern you are
referring to is that Oyster PAYG cannot be used on the Southern trains
which stop at Harrow & Wealdstone and Wembley Central even though
Oyster PAYG is valid on the DC line over that stretch or are you
thinking of something else?

It doesn't note that on the map showing where Oyster PAYG is valid
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...YG-Diagram.pdf

Is there an Oyster card reader on the mainline platforms at Wembley
Central? Wembley Central mainline is not a nice place to wait and one
of the few stations where you are only allowed onto the platform when
the train is due (a member of staff unlocking the door when the train
is due).

Jonathan

Alan Osborn wrote:

How far out of London can you buy a combined London return fare inclusive of
a Travelcard. When I travel to London from Oxford I always ask for a London
Travelcard, that gives me a return fare to London plus an all zone
travelcard.

I'm not sure for a day Travelcard, but I believe GNER used to sell
monthlies from Berwick-upon-Tweed. They probably still do but I don't
feel like checking the NFM right now.
--
Michael Hoffman

On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 03:29:06PM -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

Another pertinent point is that NR fares change in January. There could be
wholesale changes to do with the London Fare Zones (as they are described by
DfT) at that time, like there were in January 07.

I'd hardly call a handful of stations changing zone "wholesale changes".

--
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

All principles of gravity are negated by fear
-- Cartoon Law V

"David Cantrell" wrote in message
k...
On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 03:29:06PM -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

Another pertinent point is that NR fares change in January. There could
be
wholesale changes to do with the London Fare Zones (as they are described
by
DfT) at that time, like there were in January 07.

I'd hardly call a handful of stations changing zone "wholesale changes".


Thats why I included 'to do with' - for instance if NR zonal fares became
the same as TfL's in Jan 08, that to me would be 'wholesale changes'.

Despite last January's announcement, NR fares for point to point journeys
currently vary depending if rail only, or rail and tube are used, and are
issued with the station names printed on them. It is highly likely that any
major changes to the zone map such as 1-9 replacing 1-6 and A-D will happen
coincidentally with the NR annual change date, because the zones are agreed
by DfT not TfL alone.

I was also trying to illustrate was why there won't be major changes to
'Overground' fares this Sunday - even if there is a special PAYG
introductory fare available (as suggested) it doesn't in itself change the
underlying 'rail' fares to 'LU/tube' values.

Paul

On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:44:48 -0800, wrote:

On 7 Nov, 17:10, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:32:40 -0000, "Paul Scott"


wrote:

"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:

"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in
view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

That doesn't necessarily follow at all. If you drew a map of the
Metropolitan line without showing the Chiltern route, would that allow an
inference to be drawn about PAYG availability on Chiltern?

An inference is not always a certainty either way (and it depends on
the actual purpose of such a map). However, the information so far
published refers specifically to the "North London Railway" which does
not include the Southern franchise to/from Watford Junction. AFAIAA
that franchise is already a specific exemption from PAYG and appears
to remain so in the absence of further advice of any change.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Presumably the specific exemption for Oyster PAYG on Southern you are
referring to is that Oyster PAYG cannot be used on the Southern trains
which stop at Harrow & Wealdstone and Wembley Central even though
Oyster PAYG is valid on the DC line over that stretch or are you
thinking of something else?

No it isnt. PAYG is unavailable on the WLL (see p.11 on
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...yster_Card.pdf)
and using that route requires use of a Travelcard or a non-zonal
ticket. This prevents use of PAYG from Kensington to Wembley Central
(Southern), Clapham Junction or Willesden Junction (Vomitlink).
snip

On Nov 8, 1:48 pm, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:44:48 -0800, wrote:
On 7 Nov, 17:10, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:32:40 -0000, "Paul Scott"

wrote:

"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:

"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in
view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

That doesn't necessarily follow at all. If you drew a map of the
Metropolitan line without showing the Chiltern route, would that allow an
inference to be drawn about PAYG availability on Chiltern?

An inference is not always a certainty either way (and it depends on
the actual purpose of such a map). However, the information so far
published refers specifically to the "North London Railway" which does
not include the Southern franchise to/from Watford Junction. AFAIAA
that franchise is already a specific exemption from PAYG and appears
to remain so in the absence of further advice of any change.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Presumably the specific exemption for Oyster PAYG on Southern you are
referring to is that Oyster PAYG cannot be used on the Southern trains
which stop at Harrow & Wealdstone and Wembley Central even though
Oyster PAYG is valid on the DC line over that stretch or are you
thinking of something else?

No it isnt. PAYG is unavailable on the WLL (see p.11 onhttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/tickets/Get_most_out_of_Oyster...)
and using that route requires use of a Travelcard or a non-zonal
ticket. This prevents use of PAYG from Kensington to Wembley Central
(Southern), Clapham Junction or Willesden Junction (Vomitlink).
snip

Ahh, the delights of changing operators!

From Sunday, the WLL will be included in PAYG as all the former
Silverlink Metro routes will be from day 1. Currently, however, it is
unclear as to whether Oyster PAYG is / will be available from Harrow &
Wealdstone to Wembley Central on the Southern trains. It certainly is
available on both the DC trains and the silverlink county trains that
stop at both stations (only a couple of night trains for county). If
you read the TFL leaflet referred to, it implies that Southern would
accept PAYG as operators are not mentioned on page 11, however, the
National Railway website only states Silverlink.

The map referred to earlier in the thread applied to the post 11th
November situation, as London Overground are shown as running the
trains, not national rail. Whether the extension of PAYG to Clapham
Junction for the London Overground trains will mean that Southern will
also accept it from Harrow - Clapham remains to be seen. Personally, I
think that they will take it, as London Overground will be the main
service provider for the route and it will be quite difficult to stop
people using PAYG on Southern trains between Olympia and West Brompton
and through to Clapham Junction.

On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Paul Scott wrote:


"David Cantrell" wrote in message
k...
On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 03:29:06PM -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

Another pertinent point is that NR fares change in January. There
could be wholesale changes to do with the London Fare Zones (as they
are described by DfT) at that time, like there were in January 07.

I'd hardly call a handful of stations changing zone "wholesale changes".

Thats why I included 'to do with' - for instance if NR zonal fares became
the same as TfL's in Jan 08, that to me would be 'wholesale changes'.

More 'retail changes', surely?

*runs away*

tom

--
Everyone in the world is doing something without me.