Travelcard then no issue. If some PAYG is required to cover the part not
covered by your Travelcard zones then the gate should calculate just a
LU gate does. If you are exiting and your Travelcard does not cover
Clapham Junction and you can't reasonably have got there on Overground
given your entry point then I'd imagine your card would be rejected.
Might need some more thought on this latter point given that many entry
points have no gates or validators - hmm.

It will become *much* more fun when PAYG extends to other lines and the
route and zone combinations become more complex.
--
Paul C

Given the interchanges possible at West Brompton etc, the only
journeys that could be rejected are ones to and from Wimbledon or
Richmond that are too quick.

On 11 Nov, 14:28, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:59:32 +0000, Graham Murray

wrote:
Paul Corfield writes:

Presumably these are for people changing on to the services from other
lines while the SWT ticket gates at the station periphery have
presumably been modified for PAYG acceptance but only for valid PAYG
destinations from Clapham (for exit validation).

Would that not be too much checking for the gates, as it would have been
possible to have travelled from almost anywhere on the Underground
network to the Bakerloo line and thence on the DC lines to Watford
Junction and then to Clapham Junction - all without having to touch out
and in again when changing.

I wouldn't have thought so. Depending on the route you're either "in"
the system at a valid entry point the exit gate will recognise and
you're within 2 hours of entry or you aren't if the trip is entirely on
PAYG. The alternative is that you're on a Travelcard on an Oyster card
and you're either in your zones or you aren't and you last entered at a
valid PAYG point or you did not. If your entire trip is covered by
Travelcard then no issue. If some PAYG is required to cover the part not
covered by your Travelcard zones then the gate should calculate just a
LU gate does. If you are exiting and your Travelcard does not cover
Clapham Junction and you can't reasonably have got there on Overground
given your entry point then I'd imagine your card would be rejected.
Might need some more thought on this latter point given that many entry
points have no gates or validators - hmm.

I'd fully expect that if there wasn't a valid touch-in detected then
when going through the gates to exit then the Oyster card's PAYG
balance would have the "maximum cash fare" of £4 deducted from it, as
opposed to having the card rejected - this is certainly the normal
behaviour of LU ticket gates.


It will become *much* more fun when PAYG extends to other lines and the
route and zone combinations become more complex.
--
Paul C

My head creaks at the sheer thought of it. Blimey, I really hope that
there's some bright back-room bods dealing with this at Oyster HQ!

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:38:44 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

On 11 Nov, 09:58, Paul Corfield wrote:

http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=461

confirms the Southern PAYG acceptance between Watford and Clapham
Junctions.

Well, wow - straight from the horses mouth - thanks Paul for flagging
that up. I must say I'm a bit surprised to find that Southern have
provided a straightforward webpage that explains their acceptance of
PAYG on this route, though really I shouldn't be! Alas the line
diagram on that page doesn't make it clear that there are two quite
different services up the West London Line - i.e. Southern and London
Overground.

I think Southern are actually quite enthusiastic about PAYG. There was
supposed to be a pilot acceptance of PAYG between Victoria and Balham on
their services but it didn't come off. That would have been similar to
the One situation of Liverpool St - Walthamstow C / Seven Sisters /
Tottenham Hale.

Yes, I remember the Balham - Victoria trial trial that never happened
(probably because I read your posts about it!).

Southern have been pricing their fares on a zonal basis since January
2005, which can be seen to support your notion that they're favourable
towards PAYG. Acceptance would certainly be a popular move south of
the river.


It's entirely right that they've taken the time to explain the new
acceptance and to get it right on day one.

Of course it is - I'm just a bit surprised they have!


As far as I can see that's the first bit of passenger facing
communication on the web about the acceptance of Oyster PAYG from
Watford Junction.

I note this bit in the text:
"Please do not use your PAYG Oyster Card to pass through the gates if
you are NOT travelling on the above services to Watford Junction or
intermediate stations."

I have not been to Clapham Junction for a very long time but reports
elsewhere on uk.railway have said there are validators at each of the
relevant platforms for the Southern / Overground service. Presumably
these are for people changing on to the services from other lines while
the SWT ticket gates at the station periphery have presumably been
modified for PAYG acceptance but only for valid PAYG destinations from
Clapham (for exit validation).

As I say in a post elsewhere I'd expect those exiting Clapham Jn
without a valid touch-in to just be 'fined' the £4 "maximum cash fare"
as happens elsewhere on the LU network (or maybe even £5 as applies at
National Rail termini) . Perhaps this won't be the case, and thus the
card will be rejected and the passenger will have to explain
themselves.


I'm afraid to say that this is going to be a problem at Clapham
Junction, with people erroneously thinking that Oyster PAYG is now
good for all train services from that station. I expect Clapham
Junction will unfortunately produce a steady flow of unresolved
journeys.

To be fair Mizter T there could always be problems where you have
partial acceptance of a product on limited stretches of line. However
that should not stop people making the effort to get parts of the
network working. From my limited observations there seems to be no
problem with people adjusting to the idea between Liverpool St and
Walthamstow Central. People going on the train touch the validators
as necessary and that's that.

I absolutely agree with your sentiments. Apart from anything else
getting it working on some routes might well chivvy the TOCs into
adopting it on their other routes.

I would just point out that the Walthamstow example you give is
somewhat different to Clapham Jn, as the predominant flow at
Walthamstow is to/from central London. At Clapham Jn the passengers
flows are going in all directions, in particular to/from Waterloo and
Victoria - routes where PAYG will not be valid.

I think I'll be going through Clapham Jn this week so I'll take a look
at how well publicised the situation is there, and maybe quiz the
staff on the gate. Though I do feel for them as I expect there will
inevitably be a significant level of confusion (and annoyance if the
£4 max cash fare 'penalty' for unresolved journeys is charged).

I've stated many times before the odd situation at London Bridge where
PAYG is valid on the FCC Thameslink route but only northbound and only
as far as Kentish Town. The gates don't recognise PAYG at all, instead
one must ask to be let through the manual gate and touch-in or out on
the Oyster reader on the Thameslink platforms. I'm sure this only
works because the number of people who'll enter London Bridge station
wishing to travel on Thameslink as opposed to the Northern line (or
vice versa) must be minuscule.

There is only an issue where people are
touched in and the service is suspended and they then head downstairs to
go by tube. The LU staff are now adept at getting people through without
a double touch in.

OOI how do they handle this?

And does a double touch-in matter? I'm not sure it is necessarily a
problem. I've touched in twice before, when I thought absent mindedly
I might have gone through the gates on someone elses ticket at rush
hour, so I touched-in on the reader by the manual gate - in fact
originally I'd touched in correctly, but the double touch-in didn't
seem to cause any problems (though this might have been because I'd
reached a daily cap, I can't remember). I can easily try doing this
again soon by touching-in (or indeed out) twice as I pass through
Highbury & Islington station, as there are readers on the Vic line
platforms as well as ticket gates.

If the double touch-in does cause problems could not the Oyster
readers on the 'one' platforms and on the LU gates be configured so as
to tolerate this?

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:06:23 -0000, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

It's always been like that. It's to prevent holders of (e.g.) Z2-6
Travelcards being charged a Z1 extension fare when they make those
journeys using the NLL.

Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey,
even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an
extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1?

Yes, this will happen in every such case, as the system does not know
which route the passenger actually took.

Each pair of origin/destination stations is assigned a set of zones
that the passenger is assumed to pass through when travelling between
them.

For example, Finchley Road to Barons Court would be defined as a Z12
journey. Even if you travelled via Rayners Lane, a Z2345 journey, you
would still be charged for a Z12 journey (including excess fares as
appropriate). If you held a Z2345 Travelcard season and wished to
avoid the Z1 excess fare, you could leave and re-enter the station at
Rayners Lane, so that you would instead be making two separate Z2345
journeys.

Conversely, this also means that if your journey is defined as not
being via Z1, you can legally travel via Z1 and not get charged the
via-Z1 fare.

On 11 Nov, 01:59, Mizter T wrote:
On 11 Nov, 00:56, Tim Woodall wrote:



On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:06:38 +0000,
Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:51:46 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote:

(Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at
the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people
thinking they will be able to use it)

I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid beyond
Hatch End tomorrow.

I am told via another group that the following applies.

PAYG - Watford - Euston on Overground services
PAYG - Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston on London Midland (no change from
Silverlink validity)
PAYG - Watford Junction - Clapham Junction on Southern

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Fascinating. So you can take any train except a London Midland train
from Watford Junction on PAYG and then change onto a London Midland
train at H&W that will have stopped at WJ anyway!

So it would seem! Bear in mind that London Midland will have inherited
the situation at H&W from Silverlink, and if you go to H&W you'll see
it is implemented grudgingly - there are *no* Oyster readers on the
main line side of the platforms, they are only on the DC line side and
on the overbridge near the stairs that lead down to the DC line
platforms. Nor, as I recall, are there any posters to advise you of
the situation.

This is no longer the case, over the last week to 10 days, proper
tickets gates have been installed and they were active (saying oyster
only) but kept open this morning. These have been installed on both
sides of the station, making Harrow and Wealdstone a fully gated
station now.

There was also commissioning work under way at Clapham Junction, with
the gate line gates being worked on. Presumably to 'activate' PAYG
here as well.


Whether this will change will be interesting - H&W is to be a London
Overground station, managed by LU. Perhaps TfL won't want to upset the
apple cart - if they promote the availability of Oyster on the fast
trains, London Midland might have a strop and attempt to withdraw it -
that said I've no idea whether they'd have the power to do so under
their franchise agreement.


A bit of a nuisance, yes. I'm sure TfL would be happy to negotiate
with London Midland in the hope of coming up with a reasonable deal
that would be conducive to both parties. I dare suggest the ball is in
London Midland's side of the court on this one.


It's going to be fun seeing a guard attempting to scan all the
oystercards between Harrow and Watford Junction, if they don't accept
it on the semi-fast services!!

Please don't shoot the messenger given the inconsistencies in the above
position. More changes due for the Jan Fares Revision but I don't know
what they are.

No shooting here. Whilst, of course, everybody is hoping for cheaper
fares, I think the main complaint is that nobody is certain when and
where tickets are going to be available/valid. I'm assuming that my gold
card will remain valid on the DC line from Watford Junction but even
that hasn't been explicitly set out. (I've always assumed that it's not
valid on the Bakerloo line for the stations that are the same as the DC
line BICBW)

Tim.

Agreed on the lack of information. As I say elsewhere, one fear TfL
might have had about any pre-publicity is that people might have got
confused and started attempting to use Oyster PAYG on Silverlink Metro
before it became valid.

Your Gold Card will remain valid on the DC line from Watford Junction
- and you'll be pleased to read that your assumption regarding the
Bakerloo line was wrong, as your Gold Card will remain valid, as it
always has been, on Bakerloo line trains between H&W and Queen's Park
- i.e. on the shared section of the DC line.

This can be confirmed by looking at the ticket inter-availability
table on page L5 of section L of the National Fares Manual, which can
be seen here (PDF):
http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM97/NFM97_Common_L.pdf

With regards to other points in the thread. The guard on the Southern
service that I took confirmed that Oyster PAYG is valid throughout on
the Watford Junction - Clapham Junction, as of 11th November. He
wasn't sure about whether it was valid on London Midland though. He
also said that he wasn't sure what fare would be charged if it were to
be used to Watford!!

On Nov 11, 2:06 pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
asdf wrote:
It's always been like that. It's to prevent holders of (e.g.) Z2-6
Travelcards being charged a Z1 extension fare when they make those
journeys using the NLL.

Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey,
even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an
extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1?

Yes - the system assumes the most obvious route. Eg Wembley Park to
Hammersmith probably assumes via Zone 1 rather than via Rayners Lane.

On 11 Nov, 10:38, Mizter T wrote:
I note this bit in the text:
"Please do not use your PAYG Oyster Card to pass through the gates if
you are NOT travelling on the above services to Watford Junction or
intermediate stations."

I'm afraid to say that this is going to be a problem at Clapham
Junction, with people erroneously thinking that Oyster PAYG is now
good for all train services from that station. I expect Clapham
Junction will unfortunately produce a steady flow of unresolved
journey.

There are quite a lot of signs and stickers around the 'town' exit
from the station saying that PAYG is only valid on the routes to
Willesden and Watford Junctions. They are certainly much clearer than
signs at London Bridge regarding PAYG on Thameslink. Presumably
because TfL have been involved

"Andy" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 11 Nov, 01:59, Mizter T wrote:
On 11 Nov, 00:56, Tim Woodall wrote:



On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:06:38 +0000,
Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:51:46 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote:

(Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations
at
the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people
thinking they will be able to use it)

I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid
beyond
Hatch End tomorrow.

I am told via another group that the following applies.

PAYG - Watford - Euston on Overground services
PAYG - Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston on London Midland (no change from
Silverlink validity)
PAYG - Watford Junction - Clapham Junction on Southern

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether
the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Fascinating. So you can take any train except a London Midland train
from Watford Junction on PAYG and then change onto a London Midland
train at H&W that will have stopped at WJ anyway!

So it would seem! Bear in mind that London Midland will have inherited
the situation at H&W from Silverlink, and if you go to H&W you'll see
it is implemented grudgingly - there are *no* Oyster readers on the
main line side of the platforms, they are only on the DC line side and
on the overbridge near the stairs that lead down to the DC line
platforms. Nor, as I recall, are there any posters to advise you of
the situation.

This is no longer the case, over the last week to 10 days, proper
tickets gates have been installed and they were active (saying oyster
only) but kept open this morning. These have been installed on both
sides of the station, making Harrow and Wealdstone a fully gated
station now.

There was also commissioning work under way at Clapham Junction, with
the gate line gates being worked on. Presumably to 'activate' PAYG
here as well.


Whether this will change will be interesting - H&W is to be a London
Overground station, managed by LU. Perhaps TfL won't want to upset the
apple cart - if they promote the availability of Oyster on the fast
trains, London Midland might have a strop and attempt to withdraw it -
that said I've no idea whether they'd have the power to do so under
their franchise agreement.


A bit of a nuisance, yes. I'm sure TfL would be happy to negotiate
with London Midland in the hope of coming up with a reasonable deal
that would be conducive to both parties. I dare suggest the ball is in
London Midland's side of the court on this one.


It's going to be fun seeing a guard attempting to scan all the
oystercards between Harrow and Watford Junction, if they don't accept
it on the semi-fast services!!

Please don't shoot the messenger given the inconsistencies in the
above
position. More changes due for the Jan Fares Revision but I don't
know
what they are.

No shooting here. Whilst, of course, everybody is hoping for cheaper
fares, I think the main complaint is that nobody is certain when and
where tickets are going to be available/valid. I'm assuming that my
gold
card will remain valid on the DC line from Watford Junction but even
that hasn't been explicitly set out. (I've always assumed that it's not
valid on the Bakerloo line for the stations that are the same as the DC
line BICBW)

Tim.

Agreed on the lack of information. As I say elsewhere, one fear TfL
might have had about any pre-publicity is that people might have got
confused and started attempting to use Oyster PAYG on Silverlink Metro
before it became valid.

Your Gold Card will remain valid on the DC line from Watford Junction
- and you'll be pleased to read that your assumption regarding the
Bakerloo line was wrong, as your Gold Card will remain valid, as it
always has been, on Bakerloo line trains between H&W and Queen's Park
- i.e. on the shared section of the DC line.

This can be confirmed by looking at the ticket inter-availability
table on page L5 of section L of the National Fares Manual, which can
be seen here (PDF):
http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM97/NFM97_Common_L.pdf

With regards to other points in the thread. The guard on the Southern
service that I took confirmed that Oyster PAYG is valid throughout on
the Watford Junction - Clapham Junction, as of 11th November. He
wasn't sure about whether it was valid on London Midland though. He
also said that he wasn't sure what fare would be charged if it were to
be used to Watford!!

The LO timetable booklet (hard copy version) states that London Midland will
accept Oyster PAYG from Watford Junction to Euston.

Paul S

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:59:50 -0800, Mizter T
wrote:

On 11 Nov, 00:56, Tim Woodall wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:06:38 +0000,
Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:51:46 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote:

(Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at
the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people
thinking they will be able to use it)

I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid beyond
Hatch End tomorrow.

I am told via another group that the following applies.

PAYG - Watford - Euston on Overground services
PAYG - Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston on London Midland (no change from
Silverlink validity)
PAYG - Watford Junction - Clapham Junction on Southern

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Fascinating. So you can take any train except a London Midland train
from Watford Junction on PAYG and then change onto a London Midland
train at H&W that will have stopped at WJ anyway!

So it would seem! Bear in mind that London Midland will have inherited
the situation at H&W from Silverlink, and if you go to H&W you'll see
it is implemented grudgingly - there are *no* Oyster readers on the
main line side of the platforms, they are only on the DC line side and
on the overbridge near the stairs that lead down to the DC line
platforms. Nor, as I recall, are there any posters to advise you of
the situation.

Whether this will change will be interesting - H&W is to be a London
Overground station, managed by LU. Perhaps TfL won't want to upset the
apple cart - if they promote the availability of Oyster on the fast
trains, London Midland might have a strop and attempt to withdraw it -
that said I've no idea whether they'd have the power to do so under
their franchise agreement.

Shouldn't that be - Harrow remains a Network Rail station, to be
managed by LU/TfL and that LO is merely one of the train
franchises/operators serving the station.
snip

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007, Mizter T wrote:

Anyway, that's just me speculating on how it could work.

It remains a bit of a shame that Watford Junction isn't going to become
part of the Met line zonal system (i.e. become part of zone A),
especially given the fact the Met's Watford station is in the same town,
albeit 15 (?) mins walk away from Watford Jn. But quite predictable
nonetheless.

I wonder how this would interact with the Croxley Link. Watford Junction
and High Street becoming dual-zone 7M/8W? 8M/8W?

tom

--
**** bitches, you know how I swang. I gets my cinna-on at the
Cinna-bon. -- K-Real