On 11 Nov, 00:56, Tim Woodall wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:06:38 +0000,
Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:51:46 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:04:51 -0800, wrote:

(Actually, my guess is that oyster won't be ready at these stations at
the weekend so the information hasn't been published to stop people
thinking they will be able to use it)

I have to agree - I'll be pleasantly surprised if PAYG is valid beyond
Hatch End tomorrow.

I am told via another group that the following applies.

PAYG - Watford - Euston on Overground services
PAYG - Harrow & Wealdstone - Euston on London Midland (no change from
Silverlink validity)
PAYG - Watford Junction - Clapham Junction on Southern

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Fascinating. So you can take any train except a London Midland train
from Watford Junction on PAYG and then change onto a London Midland
train at H&W that will have stopped at WJ anyway!

So it would seem! Bear in mind that London Midland will have inherited
the situation at H&W from Silverlink, and if you go to H&W you'll see
it is implemented grudgingly - there are *no* Oyster readers on the
main line side of the platforms, they are only on the DC line side and
on the overbridge near the stairs that lead down to the DC line
platforms. Nor, as I recall, are there any posters to advise you of
the situation.

Whether this will change will be interesting - H&W is to be a London
Overground station, managed by LU. Perhaps TfL won't want to upset the
apple cart - if they promote the availability of Oyster on the fast
trains, London Midland might have a strop and attempt to withdraw it -
that said I've no idea whether they'd have the power to do so under
their franchise agreement.


Stations from Hatch End - Watford Junction will be priced *for PAYG
only* on the Zones 6A-D principle as for the out county stretches of the
Met. The out county zones do not apply to Travelcards which are still
priced and issued as a Z1-6 plus rail to Watford Junction. I don't know
which stations on the DC line fall into which out county zones. Hatch
End remains in Zone 6.

It's all a bit of a nuisance if PAYG won't have general validity from
WJ. I enjoyed my Friday journeys via Watford-Baker Street which gets me
about 14 miles of cycling (approx 2.5+4.5+4.5+2.5) rather than the 8
miles I usually get (approx 1+3+3+1). It's just a shame that the met
line journey takes so long so I wouldn't want to do it every day. But if
I was always using PAYG I could choose which way to go. (Obviously I can
do that anyway but I have to pay extra for a slower journey - I assume
adding an all zones travel card onto my gold card won't take me to the
end of the Met line, just to Z6?)

A bit of a nuisance, yes. I'm sure TfL would be happy to negotiate
with London Midland in the hope of coming up with a reasonable deal
that would be conducive to both parties. I dare suggest the ball is in
London Midland's side of the court on this one.

Re your ticketing question - I presume you have a WJ to Euston rail
only Gold Card? If so then you're right - you can only add a
Travelcard zones 1-6 to it, not a Travelcard zones 1-D. Thus if you
had a zones 1-6 Travelcard you'd either need to buy a single £3 ticket
to cover the extra distance from Watford to Moor Park (start of zone
6) and do the same coming back, or otherwise use Oyster PAYG from
Watford to Moor Park - by getting off at Moor Park and touching-out.
The only other option would be to buy a zones 4-B season Travelcard
(i.e. 456AB), which is the fewest zones season Travelcard available
for this journey, and you'd thus be covered for your journey with no
actual need to touch in/out from Watford down to Moor Park (in fact as
far as Wembley Park) - but an annual would cost you £856!


Please don't shoot the messenger given the inconsistencies in the above
position. More changes due for the Jan Fares Revision but I don't know
what they are.

No shooting here. Whilst, of course, everybody is hoping for cheaper
fares, I think the main complaint is that nobody is certain when and
where tickets are going to be available/valid. I'm assuming that my gold
card will remain valid on the DC line from Watford Junction but even
that hasn't been explicitly set out. (I've always assumed that it's not
valid on the Bakerloo line for the stations that are the same as the DC
line BICBW)

Tim.

Agreed on the lack of information. As I say elsewhere, one fear TfL
might have had about any pre-publicity is that people might have got
confused and started attempting to use Oyster PAYG on Silverlink Metro
before it became valid.

Your Gold Card will remain valid on the DC line from Watford Junction
- and you'll be pleased to read that your assumption regarding the
Bakerloo line was wrong, as your Gold Card will remain valid, as it
always has been, on Bakerloo line trains between H&W and Queen's Park
- i.e. on the shared section of the DC line.

This can be confirmed by looking at the ticket inter-availability
table on page L5 of section L of the National Fares Manual, which can
be seen here (PDF):
http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM97/NFM97_Common_L.pdf

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:24:07 -0800, Mizter T wrote:


Paul Corfield wrote:


Worse
still the Gunnersbury - Richmond section of the NLL / District Line is
out of service due to a "signalling" problem. It must be a very serious
problem to cause day long disruption without an apparent fix being
possible. That junction has been a mess since it was renewed by Network
Rail earlier this year - goodness knows what they've done to it to make
it worse now than it was before they did the work. If NR don't sort
this out then it's a very inauspicious start for Overground tomorrow on
one of their main routes.

Regarding the Gunnersbury Junction - I'd like to think that TfL will
be breathing down Network Rail's back pretty heavily to get this
sorted out, but of course the District line has been suffering at the
hands of this already. Perhaps there's an NR permanent way team there
right now trying to sort it out for tomorrow...

Having seen the daily report about this incident I must apologise to
Network Rail. The root cause of the problem is cable theft and therefore
not an asset failure. Obviously they are working hard to get services
restored.

That'll teach me to make assumptions :-(
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:24:07 -0800, Mizter T wrote:


Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:29:50 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote:

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with
London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from
Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from
H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink.

The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to
Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from
H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to
await confirmation (or otherwise) of that!

The person who provided the info is very close to the Oyster and fares
issues. I trust his information to be completely accurate.

Fare enough, that sounds very authoritative. I just found it to be
slightly odd, not least as both Southern and London Midland are Govia
owned companies. I guess that London Midland has money to lose if it
were to accept PAYG from Watford Jn, whilst Southern wouldn't. Still,
pity the poor passenger!

http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=461

confirms the Southern PAYG acceptance between Watford and Clapham
Junctions.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Nov 10, 7:57 pm, W14_Fishbourne
wrote:
On Nov 10, 5:57 pm, Mizter T wrote:



But wouldn't it be great if you could do just that. That's the kind of
thing passengers want.

Sure. I'd also love to go into Sainsbury's and buy some best rump
steak for the same price as brisket!

With the railways it's the other way round. When your journey takes
twice as long and involves a bus, you still pay the full train fare.

On 11 Nov, 09:58, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:24:07 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:29:50 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Nov, 19:06, Paul Corfield wrote:

PAYG *not* valid on London Midland from Watford Junction - Harrow and
Wealdstone. I am waiting for a response to a question as to whether the
above non availability also means no availability of PAYG between
Watford and Euston on London Midland services.

Though that would logically follow. So basically no agreement with
London Midland (at least not yet) for PAYG on their services from
Watford Junction to points south, whilst the availability of PAYG from
H&W to Euston is inherited from Silverlink.

The alleged availability of PAYG on Southern from Watford Jn down to
Clapham Jn comes at some surprise - I can see PAYG being valid from
H&W down to Clapham Jn, but not from Watford Jn. I think it best to
await confirmation (or otherwise) of that!

The person who provided the info is very close to the Oyster and fares
issues. I trust his information to be completely accurate.

Fare enough, that sounds very authoritative. I just found it to be
slightly odd, not least as both Southern and London Midland are Govia
owned companies. I guess that London Midland has money to lose if it
were to accept PAYG from Watford Jn, whilst Southern wouldn't. Still,
pity the poor passenger!

http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=461

confirms the Southern PAYG acceptance between Watford and Clapham
Junctions.
--
Paul C


Well, wow - straight from the horses mouth - thanks Paul for flagging
that up. I must say I'm a bit surprised to find that Southern have
provided a straightforward webpage that explains their acceptance of
PAYG on this route, though really I shouldn't be! Alas the line
diagram on that page doesn't make it clear that there are two quite
different services up the West London Line - i.e. Southern and London
Overground.

As far as I can see that's the first bit of passenger facing
communication on the web about the acceptance of Oyster PAYG from
Watford Junction.

I note this bit in the text:
"Please do not use your PAYG Oyster Card to pass through the gates if
you are NOT travelling on the above services to Watford Junction or
intermediate stations."

I'm afraid to say that this is going to be a problem at Clapham
Junction, with people erroneously thinking that Oyster PAYG is now
good for all train services from that station. I expect Clapham
Junction will unfortunately produce a steady flow of unresolved
journeys.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:38:44 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

On 11 Nov, 09:58, Paul Corfield wrote:

http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=461

confirms the Southern PAYG acceptance between Watford and Clapham
Junctions.

Well, wow - straight from the horses mouth - thanks Paul for flagging
that up. I must say I'm a bit surprised to find that Southern have
provided a straightforward webpage that explains their acceptance of
PAYG on this route, though really I shouldn't be! Alas the line
diagram on that page doesn't make it clear that there are two quite
different services up the West London Line - i.e. Southern and London
Overground.

I think Southern are actually quite enthusiastic about PAYG. There was
supposed to be a pilot acceptance of PAYG between Victoria and Balham on
their services but it didn't come off. That would have been similar to
the One situation of Liverpool St - Walthamstow C / Seven Sisters /
Tottenham Hale.

It's entirely right that they've taken the time to explain the new
acceptance and to get it right on day one.

As far as I can see that's the first bit of passenger facing
communication on the web about the acceptance of Oyster PAYG from
Watford Junction.

I note this bit in the text:
"Please do not use your PAYG Oyster Card to pass through the gates if
you are NOT travelling on the above services to Watford Junction or
intermediate stations."

I have not been to Clapham Junction for a very long time but reports
elsewhere on uk.railway have said there are validators at each of the
relevant platforms for the Southern / Overground service. Presumably
these are for people changing on to the services from other lines while
the SWT ticket gates at the station periphery have presumably been
modified for PAYG acceptance but only for valid PAYG destinations from
Clapham (for exit validation).

I'm afraid to say that this is going to be a problem at Clapham
Junction, with people erroneously thinking that Oyster PAYG is now
good for all train services from that station. I expect Clapham
Junction will unfortunately produce a steady flow of unresolved
journeys.

To be fair Mizter T there could always be problems where you have
partial acceptance of a product on limited stretches of line. However
that should not stop people making the effort to get parts of the
network working. From my limited observations there seems to be no
problem with people adjusting to the idea between Liverpool St and
Walthamstow Central. People going on the train touch the validators as
necessary and that's that. There is only an issue where people are
touched in and the service is suspended and they then head downstairs to
go by tube. The LU staff are now adept at getting people through without
a double touch in.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield writes:

Presumably these are for people changing on to the services from other
lines while the SWT ticket gates at the station periphery have
presumably been modified for PAYG acceptance but only for valid PAYG
destinations from Clapham (for exit validation).

Would that not be too much checking for the gates, as it would have been
possible to have travelled from almost anywhere on the Underground
network to the Bakerloo line and thence on the DC lines to Watford
Junction and then to Clapham Junction - all without having to touch out
and in again when changing.

asdf wrote:

It's always been like that. It's to prevent holders of (e.g.) Z2-6
Travelcards being charged a Z1 extension fare when they make those
journeys using the NLL.

Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey,
even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an
extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1?

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:59:32 +0000, Graham Murray
wrote:

Paul Corfield writes:

Presumably these are for people changing on to the services from other
lines while the SWT ticket gates at the station periphery have
presumably been modified for PAYG acceptance but only for valid PAYG
destinations from Clapham (for exit validation).

Would that not be too much checking for the gates, as it would have been
possible to have travelled from almost anywhere on the Underground
network to the Bakerloo line and thence on the DC lines to Watford
Junction and then to Clapham Junction - all without having to touch out
and in again when changing.

I wouldn't have thought so. Depending on the route you're either "in"
the system at a valid entry point the exit gate will recognise and
you're within 2 hours of entry or you aren't if the trip is entirely on
PAYG. The alternative is that you're on a Travelcard on an Oyster card
and you're either in your zones or you aren't and you last entered at a
valid PAYG point or you did not. If your entire trip is covered by
Travelcard then no issue. If some PAYG is required to cover the part not
covered by your Travelcard zones then the gate should calculate just a
LU gate does. If you are exiting and your Travelcard does not cover
Clapham Junction and you can't reasonably have got there on Overground
given your entry point then I'd imagine your card would be rejected.
Might need some more thought on this latter point given that many entry
points have no gates or validators - hmm.

It will become *much* more fun when PAYG extends to other lines and the
route and zone combinations become more complex.
--
Paul C

On 11 Nov, 14:06, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:
asdf wrote:
It's always been like that. It's to prevent holders of (e.g.) Z2-6
Travelcards being charged a Z1 extension fare when they make those
journeys using the NLL.

Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey,
even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an
extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1?

This is also something I've been wondering about.

The TfL single fare finder at...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/faresandtickets/2007/farefinder/
....states that the Oyster PAYG fare for a Richmond to Stratford
journey is £2.50 peak, £2 at other times - and these are the via zone
1 fares. Meanwhile the fares table states that a journey in zones 2-4
(i.e. as would be the case if one travelled via the NLL) would be
£1.80 peak, £1 at other times.

As the TfL fares booklet says [1], "Some journeys have been defined as
requiring travel via Zone 1 and will be charged and capped
accordingly, irrespective of the actual route taken." This would
appear to be the case in the example given.

As you say, what would therefore happen if a passenger made this
journey with a zones 2-4 Travelcard loaded on an Oyster card - it does
seem to suggest that the passenger would get charged the excess from
their PAYG balance. Maybe the system is designed to tolerate this and
so the excess would not be charged. There is of course one way to find
out, but I'm afraid I'm not feeling quite flush (nor time rich) enough
at the moment to flush money down the drain travelling round London
testing these various scenarios out (though in a way I'd quite like to
as I'm very curious as to how things have been set up!).

-----
[1] TfL Fares and tickets booklet (PDF) - includes Oyster fares
tables:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ckets-0709.pdf