On Nov 18, 2:04 pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article
,

(MIG) wrote:
Personally, I have no desire for all my journeys to be tracked,

Don't register your Oyster card then.


Obviously, but some of the advantages mentioned, eg being able to get
a one-day travelcard online in advance, presumably depend on it being
registered (as does getting a refund when they screw up).

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 06:46:23 -0800 (PST),
MIG wrote:
On Nov 18, 2:04 pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article
,

(MIG) wrote:
Personally, I have no desire for all my journeys to be tracked,

Don't register your Oyster card then.


Obviously, but some of the advantages mentioned, eg being able to get
a one-day travelcard online in advance, presumably depend on it being
registered (as does getting a refund when they screw up).

The ODTC in advance was a wish of mine and not available (I think)

But you can have multiple cards. If you have a registered one with auto
top-up set up but then generally use an unregistered card and always top
it up with cash then (other than possibly paying more than the cap)
you'll always be able to just jump on the tube. I once got caught out at
custom house where I had to buy a cash single because I didn't have
enough money on my card - I knew at Euston before I set off that I'd
need to put more money on it but I'd assumed there would be facilities
to top up at Custom House and so didn't want to queue at Euston.
(I was sorely tempted to travel anyway as I'd have been charged the 1.50
- or whatever it was - anyway in those days and then I could have topped
up at Euston)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

On Nov 18, 4:48 pm, Tim Woodall wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 06:46:23 -0800 (PST),
MIG wrote:

On Nov 18, 2:04 pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article
,

(MIG) wrote:
Personally, I have no desire for all my journeys to be tracked,

Don't register your Oyster card then.

Obviously, but some of the advantages mentioned, eg being able to get
a one-day travelcard online in advance, presumably depend on it being
registered (as does getting a refund when they screw up).

The ODTC in advance was a wish of mine and not available (I think)


Because you can't put it on Oyster at all, never mind in advance. If
it could be stored on Oyster, then presumably it could be done in
advance. It's all hypothetical.

Neil Williams wrote in article
...
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:24:31 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Definitely - this has been discussed often and confirmed. You
actually get
charged twice the maximum cash fare if a journey exceeds the 2 hour
limit,
because you end up with both an unresolved entry = £4.00, and an
unresolved
exit = £4.00.

Which is a nonsense, as there are journeys that can take that long.
3
or 4 hours would be more sensible.

Have you examples ?

It might be better to start with the out-of-station interchange
problem.

That is, you leave the system at an OoS intending to end your journey,
when you start another journey later but still within 2 hours of your
initial entry the Oyster system considers it a resumed journey but you
very soon hit the 2 hour timeout and are charged excessively
accordingly.

I suggest that in these circumstances, since you touched in properly,
the system should recalculate for two journeys.

And for a long journey, if you touched in/ validated anywhere during
the 2 hours then either the 2 hours should be extended from the last
touch in or the same recalculation for 2 journeys should occur.

--
Mike D

On 18 Nov 2007 18:44:09 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear"
wrote:

Have you examples ?

The all-too-frequent delays, for one, especially if you are travelling
from the extremes of one line to the extremes of another.

It won't trip most people up, but it shouldn't trip *anyone* up.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01c829fd$8ba88140$LocalHost@default...

Neil Williams wrote in article
...
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:24:31 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Definitely - this has been discussed often and confirmed. You
actually get
charged twice the maximum cash fare if a journey exceeds the 2 hour
limit,
because you end up with both an unresolved entry = £4.00, and an
unresolved
exit = £4.00.

Which is a nonsense, as there are journeys that can take that long.
3
or 4 hours would be more sensible.

Have you examples ?


There were many examples last time this was discussed, basically relying on
journeys such as Chesham - 'either eastern extremity'. Someone touching in
at Chesham just after a train has left for instance, [and why shouldn't
they], would run down a fair chunk of the 2 hours before they even got
moving...

The TfL planner shows an average for the next 4 journeys to Epping for
example of about 2 hours 20 min, with departures half hourly.

Paul

On 18 Nov 2007 18:44:09 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear"
wrote:


Neil Williams wrote in article
...
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:24:31 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Definitely - this has been discussed often and confirmed. You
actually get
charged twice the maximum cash fare if a journey exceeds the 2 hour
limit,
because you end up with both an unresolved entry = £4.00, and an
unresolved
exit = £4.00.

Which is a nonsense, as there are journeys that can take that long.
3
or 4 hours would be more sensible.

Have you examples ?

It might be better to start with the out-of-station interchange
problem.

That is, you leave the system at an OoS intending to end your journey,
when you start another journey later but still within 2 hours of your
initial entry the Oyster system considers it a resumed journey but you
very soon hit the 2 hour timeout and are charged excessively
accordingly.

There are time limits for interchange between "sides" of an out of
station interchange. These are separate from anything to do with the 2
hour maximum journey time. If you exceed the OSI time then your second
journey will count as a new journey and the 2 hour limit restarts. There
may be people who exit at OSIs and who go about their business and then
enter at the other "side" of the OSI and unexpectedly do so within the
time limit and then effectively restart their first trip. I would
suggest the instances of the latter are small.

And before you ask no I don't know what the current OSI time limit is
for Oyster PAYG.

I suggest that in these circumstances, since you touched in properly,
the system should recalculate for two journeys.

And for a long journey, if you touched in/ validated anywhere during
the 2 hours then either the 2 hours should be extended from the last
touch in or the same recalculation for 2 journeys should occur.

I think we need to be careful here. What is not yet clear is quite what
universal PAYG acceptance on NR routes as well as LU, DLR and Overground
will look like.

My own view based on no inside knowledge is that there will be three
rates for PAYG. These will be the TfL scale as people currently
understand it and that will apply to LU, DLR and Overground. There will
then be a NR only PAYG rate which may or may not be the same prices as
the current NR zonal fares within Greater London and finally there will
be a PAYG version of the tube / train tariff that will charge for people
using NR to an interchange point with DLR, LU and Overground. The key
question is whether there will be any discount for PAYG holders relative
to the cash prices for NR zonal and tube / train tickets. This is all my
own musing and hence completely speculative but I can't see that the
TOCs could possibly contemplate charging the TfL PAYG values without a
commitment from TfL / DfT to pay increased subsidies. If there wasn't
to be a "shadow" PAYG rate I don't see why everyone went to so much
trouble creating zonal fares and charging at the last fares revision.

What rules will apply to journey times I don't know but I would venture
to suggest that a 2 maximum would not and could not apply in the case of
a tube / train journey or possibly some trips by Thameslink within the
zonal area. I also think TfL will need to fine tune the current 2 hour
time limit given that the scope of journeys has expanded with Overground
and the limited frequencies on some lines could cause people to easily
exceed 2 hours.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In article
,
(MIG) wrote:

On Nov 18, 2:04 pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article

,

(MIG) wrote:
Personally, I have no desire for all my journeys to be tracked,

Don't register your Oyster card then.


Obviously, but some of the advantages mentioned, eg being able to get
a one-day travelcard online in advance, presumably depend on it being
registered (as does getting a refund when they screw up).

I've had a refund on my unregistered Oyster card. I forget the details
now but they were discussed here I think.

--
Colin Rosenstiel