asdf wrote:

Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey,
even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an
extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1?

Yes, this will happen in every such case, as the system does not know
which route the passenger actually took.

Each pair of origin/destination stations is assigned a set of zones
that the passenger is assumed to pass through when travelling between
them.

Which does somewhat clash with the basic concept of the travelcard...

For example, Finchley Road to Barons Court would be defined as a Z12
journey. Even if you travelled via Rayners Lane, a Z2345 journey, you
would still be charged for a Z12 journey (including excess fares as
appropriate). If you held a Z2345 Travelcard season and wished to
avoid the Z1 excess fare, you could leave and re-enter the station at
Rayners Lane, so that you would instead be making two separate Z2345
journeys.

So if someone did make the round about journey and got charged on exit - or
even had no money on their PAYG - what would happen if they pursued a
refund? As far as I can make out, they would have made a legitimate journey
using a totally valid means of travel and been charged additional. That
sounds like the basis of an interesting legal case.

Conversely, this also means that if your journey is defined as not
being via Z1, you can legally travel via Z1 and not get charged the
via-Z1 fare.

Well yes - but if you get checked at an interchange or en route (not that
TfL seems to bother with human ticket checks) would that line get you off
the hook?

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:26:03 -0000, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Conversely, this also means that if your journey is defined as not
being via Z1, you can legally travel via Z1 and not get charged the
via-Z1 fare.

Well yes - but if you get checked at an interchange or en route (not that
TfL seems to bother with human ticket checks) would that line get you off
the hook?

You'd almost certainly be fine (unless you were doing something really
unusual), as long as you'd touched in correctly. There don't appear to
be any routeing rules on LU. Also, the ticket inspector would only be
able to tell where you entered the system, not where you're going, so
if you get checked in Z1 (where most of the human checks take place),
everything would look reasonable.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:04:57 -0800, Andy wrote:

Whether this will change will be interesting - H&W is to be a London
Overground station, managed by LU. Perhaps TfL won't want to upset the
apple cart - if they promote the availability of Oyster on the fast
trains, London Midland might have a strop and attempt to withdraw it -
that said I've no idea whether they'd have the power to do so under
their franchise agreement.

A bit of a nuisance, yes. I'm sure TfL would be happy to negotiate
with London Midland in the hope of coming up with a reasonable deal
that would be conducive to both parties. I dare suggest the ball is in
London Midland's side of the court on this one.

It's going to be fun seeing a guard attempting to scan all the
oystercards between Harrow and Watford Junction, if they don't accept
it on the semi-fast services!!

The guard wouldn't need to scan them to know that they're not valid...

On Nov 12, 12:54 am, asdf wrote:
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:04:57 -0800, Andy wrote:
Whether this will change will be interesting - H&W is to be a London
Overground station, managed by LU. Perhaps TfL won't want to upset the
apple cart - if they promote the availability of Oyster on the fast
trains, London Midland might have a strop and attempt to withdraw it -
that said I've no idea whether they'd have the power to do so under
their franchise agreement.

A bit of a nuisance, yes. I'm sure TfL would be happy to negotiate
with London Midland in the hope of coming up with a reasonable deal
that would be conducive to both parties. I dare suggest the ball is in
London Midland's side of the court on this one.

It's going to be fun seeing a guard attempting to scan all the
oystercards between Harrow and Watford Junction, if they don't accept
it on the semi-fast services!!

The guard wouldn't need to scan them to know that they're not valid...

Well, it was my understanding that it will be possible to obtain
Travelcard seasons on Oyster that are valid from Watford Junction. I
can't remember where I saw the info though and it might only be from
the next fares revision in January.

On 11 Nov, 16:35, asdf wrote:
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:06:23 -0000, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
It's always been like that. It's to prevent holders of (e.g.) Z2-6
Travelcards being charged a Z1 extension fare when they make those
journeys using the NLL.

Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey,
even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an
extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1?

Yes, this will happen in every such case, as the system does not know
which route the passenger actually took.

Each pair of origin/destination stations is assigned a set of zones
that the passenger is assumed to pass through when travelling between
them.

For example, Finchley Road to Barons Court would be defined as a Z12
journey. Even if you travelled via Rayners Lane, a Z2345 journey, you
would still be charged for a Z12 journey (including excess fares as
appropriate). If you held a Z2345 Travelcard season and wished to
avoid the Z1 excess fare, you could leave and re-enter the station at
Rayners Lane, so that you would instead be making two separate Z2345
journeys.

Though one would avoid any such issues if one held a paper season
Travelcard.

I'm thinking less in terms of the example you gave - the system seems
to define which journeys might go via Rayners Lane or via Zone 1
fairly sensibly (and one can work out what routing is presumed by
querying the Single Fare finder [1]) - and more in terms of journeys
along the North London Line.

For example starting at Richmond an NLL journey as far as Caledonian
Road and Barnsbury is defined as avoiding zone 1, but a journey to
Highbury & Islington (H&I) and points east is defined as via zone 1.

The TfL Journey Planner actually states that the NLL route and the
Underground route via Central London both have broadly the same
journey times. Of course the NLL is less frequent than the
Underground, and the NLL is perhaps more prone to disruption. But the
NLL is easy - all the way there without a change (though at peak times
it gets pretty packed).

But if the routing logic has been applied to season Travelcards on
Oyster as well as Oyster PAYG (and it would follow that the same logic
applies to both) then whichever route one takes from Richmond to H&I
one would be charged for a via zone 1 journey.

This also leads on to the possibility that some people who have a
zones 2-4 Travelcard on Oyster and normally take the NLL route will be
charged extra for presumed zone 1 journeys starting from yesterday -
which I can imagine causing utmost confusion!

It also raises the possibility that only some people with such
Travelcards on Oyster would be charged this extra if they touched-in
and out - so those who go through an NLL gated station at the start or
end of their journey will get charged the extra, whilst those who
don't and just enter or exit the station without touching-in or out
won't get charged the extra. (The Oyster T&Cs do state that everyone
should touch-in or out regardless of whether they are using PAYG or a
Travelcard, but as far as I can see this is not enforced.)

The point being, it would seem that for some longer Overground / NLL
journeys such as Richmond to H&I passengers might actually be better
off with a paper Travelcard.

I think some testing on the ground might be called for!

Just one other thing - will LO stations continue to sell paper season
Travelcards, or will they be phased out?


Conversely, this also means that if your journey is defined as not
being via Z1, you can legally travel via Z1 and not get charged the
via-Z1 fare.

I agree with that.

Just to apply this to my Richmond to H&I example - a Richmond to
Caledonian Road & Barnsbury journey is defined as avoiding zone 1, so
it would appear one could in fact travel via central London to H&I
(e.g. via the Victoria line) and then change for the NLL one stop west
to Caledonian Road & Barnsbury and be charged for a non-zone 1
journey. Though to be blunt you'd probably be best off going direct
via the NLL - unless, of course, a part of it wasn't running (as will
be the case next weekend when Richmond to Acton Central will be
closed).


-----
[1] TfL Single Fare finder
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...07/farefinder/

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

asdf wrote:

Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey,
even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an
extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1?

Yes, this will happen in every such case, as the system does not know
which route the passenger actually took.

Each pair of origin/destination stations is assigned a set of zones
that the passenger is assumed to pass through when travelling between
them.

Which does somewhat clash with the basic concept of the travelcard...

See my other post - I come to the possible conclusion that holding a
paper season Travelcard might actually be preferable for some longer
journeys on the NLL. Which, as a fan of Oyster, isn't the kind of
conclusion I like.



For example, Finchley Road to Barons Court would be defined as a Z12
journey. Even if you travelled via Rayners Lane, a Z2345 journey, you
would still be charged for a Z12 journey (including excess fares as
appropriate). If you held a Z2345 Travelcard season and wished to
avoid the Z1 excess fare, you could leave and re-enter the station at
Rayners Lane, so that you would instead be making two separate Z2345
journeys.

So if someone did make the round about journey and got charged on exit - or
even had no money on their PAYG - what would happen if they pursued a
refund? As far as I can make out, they would have made a legitimate journey
using a totally valid means of travel and been charged additional. That
sounds like the basis of an interesting legal case.

I agree, it's a very interesting scenario - I go into this in detail
in my other post.

There does I suppose remain the possibility that on the system is
configured to allow for such cases when someone holds a Travelcard
valid for both their starting and finishing zones and could reasonably
have travelled on the NLL.


Conversely, this also means that if your journey is defined as not
being via Z1, you can legally travel via Z1 and not get charged the
via-Z1 fare.

Well yes - but if you get checked at an interchange or en route (not that
TfL seems to bother with human ticket checks) would that line get you off
the hook?

As asdf says as long as you've touched in somewhere it doesn't matter
where you are.

I think the only rule is that you must broadly be going somewhere -
i.e. if you touched in at Ealing Broadway, and are checked on a Met
line train going south from Chesham having not touched-in there then
the ticket inspector might reasonably ask where you were going - if
you say Ealing Common then I'd think you'd be in trouble. In other
words simply touching-in doesn't mean you have the freedom of the
whole network to roam it at will (though if you have a season
Travelcard on Oyster you have the freedom to roam the zones you have
at will). Of course your journey would time-out after two hours as
well, so even if you didn't get checked you'd get 2 x £4 "max cash
fare" 'penalties'.

On Nov 12, 10:14 am, Mizter T wrote:
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
asdf wrote:

Are there any cases where a travelcard holder can make a detour journey,
even an unusual one, staying entirely within validity but get charged an
extension because the system assumes a trip into zone 1?

Yes, this will happen in every such case, as the system does not know
which route the passenger actually took.

Each pair of origin/destination stations is assigned a set of zones
that the passenger is assumed to pass through when travelling between
them.

Which does somewhat clash with the basic concept of the travelcard...

See my other post - I come to the possible conclusion that holding a
paper season Travelcard might actually be preferable for some longer
journeys on the NLL. Which, as a fan of Oyster, isn't the kind of
conclusion I like.

It's a pity you can't buy "paper" tickets with oyster.

Imagine going up to the ticket machine at WJ and clicking to buy an
all-zones travel card. Touching your oyster PAYG and you're done. The
travelcard is loaded onto the oyster card for the day.
(Obviously you'd actually need the paper ticket if you are going on
trains where the guards don't have oyster readers so maybe the machine
could (optionally?) print a paper ticket as well - "Only valid when
presented with oyster card whatever")

Tim.

Not bad - the North London line is already shut between Dalston &
Stratford on its first workday iun new colours....

There's a major fire in an ex-bus depot in Stratford, near the old
speedway stadium....the smoke plume can be seen from west London!

Mizter T wrote:

I think the only rule is that you must broadly be going somewhere -
i.e. if you touched in at Ealing Broadway, and are checked on a Met
line train going south from Chesham having not touched-in there then
the ticket inspector might reasonably ask where you were going - if
you say Ealing Common then I'd think you'd be in trouble. In other
words simply touching-in doesn't mean you have the freedom of the
whole network to roam it at will (though if you have a season
Travelcard on Oyster you have the freedom to roam the zones you have
at will). Of course your journey would time-out after two hours as
well, so even if you didn't get checked you'd get 2 x £4 "max cash
fare" 'penalties'.

Hmm - I wonder how the system coped with the closure of Shoreditch when
there may well have been many people travelling to and from the station for
the sheer heck of it.

In message .com,
Chris writes
Not bad - the North London line is already shut between Dalston &
Stratford on its first workday iun new colours....

There's a major fire in an ex-bus depot in Stratford, near the old
speedway stadium....the smoke plume can be seen from west London!

Is that what it is? I wondered when I hear where it was if it was near
the bus garage; so it *was* the bus garage on fire?
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk