On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:00 +0000, eastender wrote:

Oh yeah? We have two year old twins - there is no way you can get them
out a
double buggy and fold it up. Also, the side by side double buggy we have
won't fit at the front of the bus, and some drivers won't let you board at
the rear doors.

"Getting around London" states:

"Buggies that are too wide to be wheeled into the bus
via the front door must be folded. Buggy users are not
allowed to board through the centre doors of
dual-door buses."

--
jhk

Walter Briscoe wrote:

"13.2.5. If you are using a double buggy you can board through the
centre doors of a dual-door bus but, before doing so, you must first get
permission from the bus driver. '

Some drivers are just bloody minded. When they do let you on they can also
drive off before you can get to the front and pay the fare.

E.

In message of Wed, 21 Nov
2007 13:13:39 in uk.transport.london, Jarle H Knudsen
writes
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:00 +0000, eastender wrote:

Oh yeah? We have two year old twins - there is no way you can get them
out a
double buggy and fold it up. Also, the side by side double buggy we have
won't fit at the front of the bus, and some drivers won't let you board at
the rear doors.

"Getting around London" states:

"Buggies that are too wide to be wheeled into the bus
via the front door must be folded. Buggy users are not
allowed to board through the centre doors of
dual-door buses."


Interesting! "Conditions of Carriage" is more authoritative.
I suggest someone who cares may want to raise the matter at
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/contact/default.asp?type=tfl which is
usefully accessed from http://www.tfl.gov.uk/contact/default.aspx.
--
Walter Briscoe

On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 11:35:04AM +0000, Walter Briscoe wrote:

"All of London's 8,000 buses are now low-floor, wheelchair accessible
vehicles. The ramps on all buses must be in full working order at all
times. Any bus with a defective ramp is taken out of service, so you are
assured of full accessibility at all times."

That's just crazy. So given the choice of inconveniencing a tiny number
of people (wheelchair users unable to use that bus if it remains in
service until the end of the day before being fixed overnight) versus
inconveniencing a huge number of people (that is, everyone unable to use
a bus that isn't in service) they've chosen to inconvenience everyone.
This helps neither those disabled people wanting to use the bus nor the
cause of accessibility - it just makes normal people ****ed off at how
accessibility inconveniences them.

--
David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist

THIS IS THE LANGUAGE POLICE
PUT DOWN YOUR THESAURUS
STEP AWAY FROM THE CLICHE

Not familiar with your area.
I've seen a solo wheelchair user happily* travelling on the 111, so it
can be done!

(* Looking less miserable than the rest of us bus travellers, at
least)

On 20 Nov, 21:52, Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
....
I sat in the chair waiting for the bus. When it came, the driver did not
offer use of the ramp and my partner struggled to push me through the
front doors. At Cricklewood Bus Garage, we were instructed to alight and
join another bus, which was driven by the same driver. Again, there was
neither offer of a ramp or any mention of one. The same was true when we
alighted at Burnt Oak.

Do we have to demand a ramp?

I've no idea what the official guidance is, but I'm pretty sure I've
seen marked bell-pushes on the outside of some buses, suggesting
that you're expected to request the ramp. At the first stop, was it
obvious you wanted to board that particular bus ? (sounds harsh, but
if
it serves several routes and there was a rush of other passengers
then
he may simply not have realised. After that he's got a bit less of an
excuse!).

All the on-board wheelchair bays seem to have a special blue
bell-push with a wheelchair symbol; it would seem a good idea to
always use that as a matter of course, so that even friendly
drivers know to pull in to the stop such that they can deploy the
ramp.

My partner looks young and fit.

You lucky thing - maybe the driver just wanted a closer look

....
I suspect the drivers are reluctant to deploy the ramps...

Quite likely - it *seems* to take ages even when the ramp works,
and if it fails then it really can take several minutes by the time
the
driver's got out and applied his boot to it a couple of times.
It probably depends on the depot to some extent - if the local routes
have the ramps regularly used, the drivers are more likely to trust
them.

I agree that you should raise this with TfL but in practice I suspect
the best thing would be to always ask for the ramp, at the earliest
opportunity.

Hth

Henry

An elderly man at my local stop carries a screwdriver with him which
he offers to the driver each time to felicitate with folding over the
ramp. The drivers seem to be alot more friendly to him than the other
wheelchair users I see

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:13:39 +0100, Jarle H Knudsen
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:00 +0000, eastender wrote:

Oh yeah? We have two year old twins - there is no way you can get them
out a
double buggy and fold it up. Also, the side by side double buggy we have
won't fit at the front of the bus, and some drivers won't let you board at
the rear doors.

"Getting around London" states:

"Buggies that are too wide to be wheeled into the bus
via the front door must be folded. Buggy users are not
allowed to board through the centre doors of
dual-door buses."

That rule has been superceded by the one permitting entry via the centre
doors. With certain vehicles - e.g. the Dennis Darts used on route 212 -
the very narrow aisle means the majority of buggies end up using the
centre doors rather than the front.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:59:02 -0800 (PST), JL
wrote:

An elderly man at my local stop carries a screwdriver with him which
he offers to the driver each time to felicitate with folding over the
ramp. The drivers seem to be alot more friendly to him than the other
wheelchair users I see

Are you in London though? Ramps on London buses are nearly always at
the centre doors [1] and are powered. I can't think of one instance
where I've seen manual ramp deployment in London - it's often the norm
outside of London where single door buses predominate (even with double
decks).

[1] the stunningly obvious exception being smaller buses with single
doors at the front.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 04:04:55 +0000, Ernst S Blofeld
wrote:

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
I sat in the chair waiting for the bus. When it came, the driver did not
offer use of the ramp and my partner struggled to push me through the
front doors.

That behaviour is not acceptable. Provision of working ramps is, I
believe, a contractual condition for all London bus routes. I would
strongly suggest you complain to London Buses Customer Services centre.

Taking a small tangent - I was told recently, that upon successfully
boarding a bus, a wheelchair user was confronted with a mother and pram
in the designated space. The mother indicated that she felt her needs
were greater before eventually but reluctantly giving way.

I have not seen a direct "confrontation" of this nature but I have seen
and experienced the inalienable right of mothers and buggy to generally
crash and bash their way through, over and past people who happen to be
"in their way". Or, in other words, happen to be somewhere in the front
2/3s of the lower deck of a London bus.

There is generally a sense of irresistible force meeting immovable
object when two prams compete for the same space on a bus. The resulting
diplomatic efforts, sometimes entertaining in themselves, usually block
the aisle, exit or both. Oh joy.

While I have no issue with provision of wheelchair spaces on buses I
find the policy framework and enforcement with regard to buggies is just
plain wrong. Drivers are placed in a ridiculous situation of trying to
police a situation which has no clear rules and no associated publicity.
I am fed up with having to stand or being evicted from seats or from
being bashed in to by people with buggies. As buses get busier and
busier the situation is becoming more and more problematic and
expectations are out of step with the physical ability to provide
adequate space. There are also times when the amount of crowding and
congestion is, in my opinion, creating a serious safety hazard in the
event of a crash or fire.

I'll stop now because I can feel myself getting cross.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:01:43 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

That rule has been superceded by the one permitting entry via the centre
doors. With certain vehicles - e.g. the Dennis Darts used on route 212 -
the very narrow aisle means the majority of buggies end up using the
centre doors rather than the front.

Which makes far more sense, as if (like most German buses) you design
around anything other than people boarding at the centre, you can fit
in more seats forward of the centre doors which are more practical for
those who can walk but not far. You can also reinstate the centre
handrail, which makes it far easier for such people to board, and
allows both alighting and boarding at the front, while avoiding the
long walk past wheelchair/buggy areas that is present on the
all-too-common[1] UK single-doored full-size bus.

The German Merc O405 and Citaro layout (similar to the layout used on
the RV1 non-bendy Citaros, except that those don't have the centre
pole at the front like most German ones do) is about as practical as
it gets.

[1] In the UK outside London, that is. Funnily enough, no other
country I can think of has copied that particular nonsense.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.