On 10 Jan, 09:43, John B wrote:
because there is no point on the journey when he doesn't
have a valid ticket.

I've never used Megatrain, but AIUI you don't ever get issued with a
ticket. The staff at Portsmouth will tick you off a passenger list
when you arrive (or rather, won't). What you need to know is whether
that list is referred to by ticket staff later, either on the train or
at Waterloo.

U

On 10 Jan, 10:12, Michael Hoffman wrote:
Hmm. I understand the /kind/ of operations you're talking about, but
they're extremely unlikely to be relevant he SWT Portsmouth
services always have a ticket check between London and Woking, so
there's absolutely no point in carrying out the kind of raids that it /
is/ worth doing between barriered stations on OPO trains.

Except to catch this kind of thing.

You think SWT employ dedicated security patrols to stop people not-
actually-breaking-the-law by doing dubious things with Megatrain
tickets? You're having a laugh, right...?

(in any case, the problem for the OP in this case isn't being caught
in a raid, because there is no point on the journey when he doesn't
have a valid ticket.

He doesn't have a valid ticket London-Woking. It just won't be possible
to prove that until after-the-fact.

The only thing that the Megatrain T&Cs say [http://www.megatrain.com/
uk/help/smallprint.php] is:

"Bookings are only valid on the journey(s) and places stated."

I wouldn't envy the lawyer whose brief was to show, based on that
wording, that our man was travelling without a valid ticket between
London and Woking. Even on a balance of probabilities, never mind
reasonable doubt...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:

You think SWT employ dedicated security patrols to stop people not-
actually-breaking-the-law by doing dubious things with Megatrain
tickets? You're having a laugh, right...?

Who knows? All I know is that many people have been caught out by
railway stings when they thought that they had some sort of undetectable
scheme. You can read uk.railway and uk.legal archives for more.

If many of people start making a habit of this kind of scheme involving
Megatrain (or already have), I bet SWT *will* start operating stings to
catch it.

Anyway, they don't even have to do this for you to get caught. It'll be
enough that you bought a ticket outside Woking that never went through
the ticket gates at Woking.

The only thing that the Megatrain T&Cs say [http://www.megatrain.com/
uk/help/smallprint.php] is:

"Bookings are only valid on the journey(s) and places stated."

That makes it clear that break of journey is prohibited, and therefore
NRCC paragraph 6 forbids ending the journey at an intermediate station
without paying an excess fare. Now SWT just needs to prove that the OP
intended to avoid paying this fare (for example, by buying another
ticket that would let him through the barriers).

I wouldn't envy the lawyer whose brief was to show, based on that
wording, that our man was travelling without a valid ticket between
London and Woking. Even on a balance of probabilities, never mind
reasonable doubt...

The lawyer would also have the NRCC. And I think on that buying another
ticket to cover a part of the journey that under your legal theory would
already be paid for in order to get past the ticket gates would be seen
as evidence of deception.

Actually I think it would be easy to convict, you are right when you say
being caught is less likely (but still possible). The question is
whether it is worth it?
--
Michael Hoffman

"Michael Hoffman" wrote in message
...
John B wrote:
On 9 Jan, 23:14, Dave wrote:
Have relatives in Guildford, and would like to visit more often. A
cheap day return is £11.50. But looking at megabus.com I can get a
train ticket for Portsmouth which stops at Guildford on the way. Is
there anything stopping me from booking with megabus far in advance
and getting the ticket for £2 return and using it to get to Guildford
and back again?

It's disallowed under the rules.

However, it would be perfectly legitimate for you to also purchase a
£3.30 CDR from Woking to Guildford before boarding the train at
Waterloo (all London - Guildford - Portsmouth trains stop at Woking,
barring weird engineering chaos), and use that to escape the
station... this way, there is no part of your journey that isn't
covered by a valid ticket, just some parts that are double-covered.

I wouldn't recommend trying this. The railways regularly manage to catch
people who do things like buy Woking-Guildford tickets when they started
at London. If you get caught in one of those stings, then they'd want to
see that you have a valid ticket London-Woking. You don't.

I don't think anyone has mentioned that the 'Megatrain' ticket holders on
the mainline services have a dedicated coach. It makes it easier for the
guard to watch the comings and goings at intermediate stations...

Paul

On 10 Jan, 11:47, Michael Hoffman wrote:
The only thing that the Megatrain T&Cs say [http://www.megatrain.com/
uk/help/smallprint.php] is:

"Bookings are only valid on the journey(s) and places stated."

That makes it clear that break of journey is prohibited, and therefore
NRCC paragraph 6 forbids ending the journey at an intermediate station
without paying an excess fare.

ITYM 16. That's interesting.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system...misc/NRCOC.pdf

However, I'm still not convinced that...

A) "Bookings are only valid on the journey(s) and places stated"

....and...

B) "[the right to stop short] may not apply to some types of tickets
for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant
Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other
publications."

....together amount to "the right to stop short does not apply to
Megatrain" - I don't believe that A "maks clear" that "break of
journey is prohibited".

If Megatrain's condition A had the second sentence "break of journey
is prohibited", then it would. Presumably it's oversight rather than
any deliberate desire to create a loophole.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:

If Megatrain's condition A had the second sentence "break of journey
is prohibited", then it would. Presumably it's oversight rather than
any deliberate desire to create a loophole.

It also says on their web site on the "Travel by Train" page:

"""
My reservation states the main terminus; can I board elsewhere?
Please note that the departure and arrival times displayed are for the
main terminus points you selected. You must board and alight at these
points, and it is a condition of travel on megatrain that you may not
board or alight at other points on the route. If travelling on services
operated by East Midlands Trains, you will be charged the full single
fare for the actual journey made. On services operated by South West
trains Penalty fares will apply if passengers alight or board at other
points along the route.

Why can't I get on or off the train at intermediate stations?
megatrain is a simple low-cost inter-city fare like the successful
megabus which has been run by Stagecoach for over two years. It is not
expected to be highly profitable and must attract a good number of new
customers to justify itself. In order to do that, it needs to be kept
simple for passengers booking and simple for our staff to implement and
monitor. Therefore, megatrain is only being offered on lightly loaded
trains and between certain origins and destinations only. Should the
extension of the initial megatrain routes prove popular with our
passengers, we may extend to offer to more places.
"""

I think it's pretty clear that they intend that you shouldn't be able to
break your journey, and they've publicized this in their notices. If you
think otherwise, see if you can convince the magistrates.
--
Michael Hoffman

On 10 Jan, 15:35, Michael Hoffman wrote:
If Megatrain's condition A had the second sentence "break of journey
is prohibited", then it would. Presumably it's oversight rather than
any deliberate desire to create a loophole.

It also says on their web site on the "Travel by Train" page:

"""
My reservation states the main terminus; can I board elsewhere?
Please note that the departure and arrival times displayed are for the
main terminus points you selected. You must board and alight at these
points, and it is a condition of travel on megatrain that you may not
board or alight at other points on the route. If travelling on services
operated by East Midlands Trains, you will be charged the full single
fare for the actual journey made. On services operated by South West
trains Penalty fares will apply if passengers alight or board at other
points along the route.

Didn't spot that. I wonder if it's possible to buy a Megatrain ticket
without that wording appearing on your browser? - it seems reasonable
to expect the customer to refer to the NCoC and the Megatrain T&Cs,
but not also to their website FAQ.

Why can't I get on or off the train at intermediate stations?
megatrain is a simple low-cost inter-city fare like the successful
megabus which has been run by Stagecoach for over two years. It is not
expected to be highly profitable and must attract a good number of new
customers to justify itself. In order to do that, it needs to be kept
simple for passengers booking and simple for our staff to implement and
monitor. Therefore, megatrain is only being offered on lightly loaded
trains and between certain origins and destinations only. Should the
extension of the initial megatrain routes prove popular with our
passengers, we may extend to offer to more places.
"""

After about a year, I've finally worked out what they mean: "we don't
want to have to give all our station bods network-wide a list of
numbers to tick off against people who claim they need to go through
the gate to get on the Megatrain, and we certainly don't want any old
fare-dodger to be able to pretend to have a Megatrain not-ticket as an
excuse". Roll on SMS confirmation...

I think it's pretty clear that they intend that you shouldn't be able to
break your journey, and they've publicized this in their notices. If you
think otherwise, see if you can convince the magistrates.

Hmm. I'd probably not do the OP's journey, not least because it's only
six quid to get to Guildford and back anyway. However, I'd certainly
have bought a Megatrain ticket from [say] Edinburgh to Morpeth if I
were going to Berwick [or similar "small local station where going to
the 'official' stop and returning would be a ridiculous journey] and
taken my chances.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:

After about a year, I've finally worked out what they mean: "we don't
want to have to give all our station bods network-wide a list of
numbers to tick off against people who claim they need to go through
the gate to get on the Megatrain, and we certainly don't want any old
fare-dodger to be able to pretend to have a Megatrain not-ticket as an
excuse".

You give them too much credit. I think the real answer can be found he

http://tutor2u.net/economics/revisio...imination.html

Airlines charging more to go AAA-BBB than to go AAA-BBB-CCC has long
been a classic example of price discrimination.
--
Michael Hoffman

On 10 Jan, 16:20, Michael Hoffman wrote:
John B wrote:
After about a year, I've finally worked out what they mean: "we don't
want to have to give all our station bods network-wide a list of
numbers to tick off against people who claim they need to go through
the gate to get on the Megatrain, and we certainly don't want any old
fare-dodger to be able to pretend to have a Megatrain not-ticket as an
excuse".

You give them too much credit. I think the real answer can be found he

http://tutor2u.net/economics/revisio...ice-discrimina...

Airlines charging more to go AAA-BBB than to go AAA-BBB-CCC has long
been a classic example of price discrimination.

I understand the concept, but I'm not sure it's relevant for Megatrain
(which is precisely why I was previously confused).

If it were doing complex airline-style price discrimination, it would
sell cheap tickets between minor stations, and more expensive tickets
between major stations. And it probably wouldn't cover the initial
London legs at all (since any given train in SWT-land will be busiest
on its first half-hour out/last half-hour into London, and since
London has the highest concentration of people who want to go from
[anywhere] to Y) - rather, you'd fill capacity with Guildford-
Portsmouth, Farncombe-Havant... etc... customers.

Instead, it achieves the opposite. Which makes me think that it's not
complex discrimination, but just a way of filling a few empty seats
very very cheaply to the company (and to the passengers, of course).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:

Instead, it achieves the opposite. Which makes me think that it's not
complex discrimination, but just a way of filling a few empty seats
very very cheaply to the company (and to the passengers, of course).

That's exactly what price discrimination does, it allows them to fill
empty seats with cheaper tickets without abstracting away revenue they
already have. It's designed specifically to keep people like the OP from
doing what he wants to do.
--
Michael Hoffman