On Fri, 18 Apr 2008, Mr Thant wrote:

On 17 Apr, 23:52, Tom Anderson wrote:
The medium-term plan is still, i believe, to extirpate the Euston service,
run the Bakerloo all the way to Watford Junction, and then run the *NLL*
to Queen's Park.

Network Rail don't think reversing anything at Queen's Park is a good
idea due to the Bakerloo Line portal being in the way. They suggest
Willesden Junction instead.

Hmm. They've got a point - unless someone builds a couple of flyovers, the
Bakerloo is the line that's easy to reverse at QP, not the WCML^W LNWR.
Willesden Junction is a much more useful terminus, too. But this defeats
the object of freeing up capacity on the line for the Bakerloo! Although
given the manoeuvres involved in reversing NLL/LNWR trains at QP, that
capacity wouldn't really be released anyway.

Running the ELLX (XELL?) to Queen's Park is rather harder. If you consult
this highly technical track diagram:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/twic/2115244713/

There's an official version of that now:
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...appendix12.pdf

Plagiarising barstools!

The four tracks between H&I and Camden Road are a bit of a mess.
Basically, there are two electrified passenger tracks, and two
non-electrified freight tracks, paired by direction. Except that the
western end of the westbound freight track is electrified and used to
reverse passenger trains, and freight runs over the western end of the
westbound passenger track.

I suppose really, you should think of it as the passenger/freight pairs
merging - the eastbound at the left of the diagram, the westbound where
the crossover from the freight aka reversible to the passenger line is -
and the bay platform being a stub off the merged line. If that makes any
sense.

Also, why is eastbound down and westbound up? Surely when the line ran to
Broad Street, it was the other way round? I can't immediately think of any
lines the NLL interacts with where a transfer of directionality could
result in this situation.

tom

--
Oh no - I've just turned my arse into a hand grenade!

On 17 Apr, 23:52, Tom Anderson wrote:
You'll see that between Dalston and Highbury & Islington, the NLL-ELLX
route is four track, but paired by destination, with the ELL tracks to the
south of the NLL. Tracks continue to the west of H&I only from the NLL.
That means that, even with crossovers in the right places, trains could
only run from the ELL to the west by making a conflicting movement over
the eastbound NLL track, which, given the frequencies involved, is
basically a no-no. And i'm not even sure there are crossovers in the right
place.

The upshot of this is that the ELL will run only to H&I, which will leave
the ELL and NLL as completely segregated services, maximising their
reliability and potential frequency. Short of throwing in a flyover at
Dalston, there's not really any way to deliver a practical railway other
than this.

The viaduct is wide enough for four tracks all the way to the junction
west of Camden Road Station, where it inexplicably narrows to two
before diverging. If the viaduct was widened here for 500ft or so to
enable the two services to remain separate, you could continue have
totally separate ELL and NLL services; The ELL to Willesden Junction/
Queens Park via Queens Park, and the NLL to Willesden Junction via
Hampstead.

On 17 Apr, 19:38, Mr Thant
wrote:
I've been from Finchley Road Homebase to Finsbury Park by tube laden
with DIY products several times [because I used to work on Finchley
Road rather than out of /sheer/ insanity]

And what's wrong with the one in Harringay?

(or hadn't it been built yet?)


Absolutely nothing, but it was a 20-minute walk from my house in the
opposite direction from the Tube, whereas the one at the back of the
O2 was on my way home.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008, Jamie Thompson wrote:

On 17 Apr, 23:52, Tom Anderson wrote:

You'll see that between Dalston and Highbury & Islington, the NLL-ELLX
route is four track, but paired by destination, with the ELL tracks to the
south of the NLL. Tracks continue to the west of H&I only from the NLL.
That means that, even with crossovers in the right places, trains could
only run from the ELL to the west by making a conflicting movement over
the eastbound NLL track, which, given the frequencies involved, is
basically a no-no. And i'm not even sure there are crossovers in the right
place.

The upshot of this is that the ELL will run only to H&I, which will leave
the ELL and NLL as completely segregated services, maximising their
reliability and potential frequency. Short of throwing in a flyover at
Dalston, there's not really any way to deliver a practical railway other
than this.

The viaduct is wide enough for four tracks all the way to the junction
west of Camden Road Station, where it inexplicably narrows to two before
diverging. If the viaduct was widened here for 500ft or so to enable the
two services to remain separate, you could continue have totally
separate ELL and NLL services; The ELL to Willesden Junction/ Queens
Park via Queens Park, and the NLL to Willesden Junction via Hampstead.

Only if you were willing to give up having separate freight and passenger
lines, which is one thing that the current setup achieves (west of
Highbury & Islington, anyway), and which i believe is thought to be
essential for running the NLL reliably.

tom

--
Oh no - I've just turned my arse into a hand grenade!

"Tom Anderson" wrote

The four tracks between H&I and Camden Road are a bit of a mess.
Basically, there are two electrified passenger tracks, and two
non-electrified freight tracks, paired by direction. Except that the
western end of the westbound freight track is electrified and used to
reverse passenger trains, and freight runs over the western end of the
westbound passenger track.

I suppose really, you should think of it as the passenger/freight pairs
merging - the eastbound at the left of the diagram, the westbound where
the crossover from the freight aka reversible to the passenger line is -
and the bay platform being a stub off the merged line. If that makes any
sense.

Also, why is eastbound down and westbound up? Surely when the line ran to
Broad Street, it was the other way round? I can't immediately think of any
lines the NLL interacts with where a transfer of directionality could
result in this situation.

It's a bit of a mess now, with two passenger lines with third rail DC
electrification and a single reversible freight line with AC OHLE. After the
alterations, between Highbury & Islington and Camden Road (both exclusive)
there'll be four tracks, all electrified with AC OHLE, though one of them
will be reversible, but mainly used for stock transfers.

The diagram suggests that there will be 8 NLL trains per hour from
Stratford, of which 2 will reverse in the Camden Road bay, 4 will continue
via Gospel Oak, and 2 will just vanish.

As for up/down, it seems that control is being transferred to Upminster
IECC, and directions will be consistent with what applies there.

Peter

On 17 Apr, 23:52, Tom Anderson wrote:
You'll see that between Dalston and Highbury & Islington, the NLL-ELLX
route is four track, but paired by destination, with the ELL tracks to the
south of the NLL. Tracks continue to the west of H&I only from the NLL.
That means that, even with crossovers in the right places, trains could
only run from the ELL to the west by making a conflicting movement over
the eastbound NLL track, which, given the frequencies involved, is
basically a no-no. And i'm not even sure there are crossovers in the right
place.

The upshot of this is that the ELL will run only to H&I, which will leave
the ELL and NLL as completely segregated services, maximising their
reliability and potential frequency. Short of throwing in a flyover at
Dalston, there's not really any way to deliver a practical railway other
than this.

There is room for four tracks all the way to west of Camden town,
where the viaduct strangely converges to two lines before then
diverging.

If the viaduct were widened for 500yards or so, you could have fully
segregated ELL services to Queens Park/Willesden Junction via Queens
Park, and NLL services to Willesden Junction via Hampstead from
Stratford. Perhaps running Willesden to New Cross (via QP), Highbury &
Islington to Crystal Palace & West Croydon, and Dalston Junction to
Clapham Junction.

Maybe.

- Jamie

Sorry for the double post. It took an age to show up in Google Groups
so I thought it had disappeared into the ether.

On 18 Apr, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote:
The four tracks between H&I and Camden Road are a bit of a mess.
Basically, there are two electrified passenger tracks, and two
non-electrified freight tracks, paired by direction.

I think blue signifies "passenger" rather than "electrified". I should
hope all tracks are electrified.

Also, why is eastbound down and westbound up? Surely when the line ran to
Broad Street, it was the other way round? I can't immediately think of any
lines the NLL interacts with where a transfer of directionality could
result in this situation.

Because the map maker is not of your caliber and clearly an idiot.
Note also the 8 tph arriving on the right hand side. 2 tph terminate
at Camden, 4 tph go to Gospel Oak, and the other 2 evaporate*.

(* or go to Clapham Junction)

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On 18 Apr, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote:
The four tracks between H&I and Camden Road are a bit of a mess.
Basically, there are two electrified passenger tracks, and two
non-electrified freight tracks, paired by direction. Except that the
western end of the westbound freight track is electrified and used to
reverse passenger trains, and freight runs over the western end of the
westbound passenger track.

By "non-electrified", do you mean "25kV electrified"? Cos I'm fairly
sure they run electric freight trains over them somehow...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 18 Apr, 13:08, John B wrote:

On 17 Apr, 19:38, Mr Thant
wrote:

I've been from Finchley Road Homebase to Finsbury Park by tube laden
with DIY products several times [because I used to work on Finchley
Road rather than out of /sheer/ insanity]

And what's wrong with the one in Harringay?

(or hadn't it been built yet?)

Absolutely nothing, but it was a 20-minute walk from my house in the
opposite direction from the Tube, whereas the one at the back of the
O2 was on my way home.


I do wonder how many punters have been directed to the wrong "O2" -
they are both, after all, on the Jubilee line! Though I suppose a
double-vodka tonic is somewhat cheaper in the Wetherspoon's pub in the
Finchley Rd O2 (at least I think the hostelry within is owned by that
all pervasive chain).

Incidentally for many years the B&Q on the Old Kent Road genuinely was
worth avoiding - the place was completely chaotic, stock was anywhere
and everywhere (or more often than not nowhere) and the staff were
clueless. However nowadays thankfully regulars tell me that things
have been properly sorted out and knocked into shape.