On 18 Apr, 12:54, Jamie Thompson wrote:

On 17 Apr, 23:52, Tom Anderson wrote:

You'll see that between Dalston and Highbury & Islington, the NLL-ELLX
route is four track, but paired by destination, with the ELL tracks to the
south of the NLL. Tracks continue to the west of H&I only from the NLL.
That means that, even with crossovers in the right places, trains could
only run from the ELL to the west by making a conflicting movement over
the eastbound NLL track, which, given the frequencies involved, is
basically a no-no. And i'm not even sure there are crossovers in the right
place.

The upshot of this is that the ELL will run only to H&I, which will leave
the ELL and NLL as completely segregated services, maximising their
reliability and potential frequency. Short of throwing in a flyover at
Dalston, there's not really any way to deliver a practical railway other
than this.

The viaduct is wide enough for four tracks all the way to the junction
west of Camden Road Station, where it inexplicably narrows to two
before diverging. If the viaduct was widened here for 500ft or so to
enable the two services to remain separate, you could continue have
totally separate ELL and NLL services; The ELL to Willesden Junction/
Queens Park via Queens Park, and the NLL to Willesden Junction via
Hampstead.


Indeed - Paul Scott actually suggested this a few days ago in a uk.r
thread, but for a different reason - it was as a way of getting
Eurostar/ international trains off the WCML via Primrose Hill to the
new North London Incline, which diverges from the NLL east of Camden
Road station down to the CTRL portal, without conflicting with the
busy NLL - his post can be seen he
http://preview.tinyurl.com/6nnnj2

Of course the idea of regional Eurostar services seems to remain pie
in the sky. However Jamie's suggestion seems like a pretty good one -
however it would mean that at H&I, Cally Rd & Barnesbury and Camden
Road there would be two separate platforms for east-west services,
though this would only really matter for any journeys made between
them (e.g. H&I to Camden).

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 09:41:29 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:

I do wonder how many punters have been directed to the wrong "O2" -
they are both, after all, on the Jubilee line!

Hence my insistence on maintaining usage of the term "Dome"...

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008, John B wrote:

On 18 Apr, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote:

The four tracks between H&I and Camden Road are a bit of a mess.
Basically, there are two electrified passenger tracks, and two
non-electrified freight tracks, paired by direction. Except that the
western end of the westbound freight track is electrified and used to
reverse passenger trains, and freight runs over the western end of the
westbound passenger track.

By "non-electrified", do you mean "25kV electrified"? Cos I'm fairly
sure they run electric freight trains over them somehow...

Ah, you're probably right. I read the colour scheme as referring to
electrification (like in the newer Quail maps!), but that might not be it.

tom

--
In-jokes for out-casts

On 21 Apr, 14:32, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008, John B wrote:

On 18 Apr, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote:

The four tracks between H&I and Camden Road are a bit of a mess.
Basically, there are two electrified passenger tracks, and two
non-electrified freight tracks, paired by direction. Except that the
western end of the westbound freight track is electrified and used to
reverse passenger trains, and freight runs over the western end of the
westbound passenger track.

By "non-electrified", do you mean "25kV electrified"? Cos I'm fairly
sure they run electric freight trains over them somehow...

Ah, you're probably right. I read the colour scheme as referring to
electrification (like in the newer Quail maps!), but that might not be it.


I can't offer you an authoritative cite, all I can say is that I'm
sure you're initial reading of the diagram was wrong and all the black
and blue tracks will be (or indeed already are) 25kV overhead
electrified.

My reading of the diagram is...

Lines in Red: Used for ELL services, with third rail electrification.
Lines in Blue: Used for NLL services, with overhead electrification.
Lines in Black: Used for freight or ECS trains.


The Down NL goods line looks like it'll be long enough to park a long
freight train in for a while, I don't know if the same will apply to
the Up NL reversible. That said, if freight trains need somewhere to
park up for a while then they can always do that on the Primrose Hill
link, at least so long as there isn't a passenger service using it as
well (which isn't about to happen soon).

In article , Tom
Anderson writes
Also, why is eastbound down and westbound up? Surely when the line ran
to Broad Street, it was the other way round? I can't immediately think
of any lines the NLL interacts with where a transfer of directionality
could result in this situation.

Originally it was down from Broad Street to Camden Road and thence
Primrose Hill and Willesden, and also down from Broad Street to
Stratford (the North Woolwich branch was measured from Liverpool Street
via a long-ago removed southwest curve at Stratford).

When Broad Street closed, you had the odd situation of the line changing
direction at Dalston with no particular landmark. So the change of
direction was moved west to Camden Road, with everything being down from
there.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
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On 25 Apr, 12:07, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote:

In article , Tom
Anderson writes

Also, why is eastbound down and westbound up? Surely when the line ran
to Broad Street, it was the other way round? I can't immediately think
of any lines the NLL interacts with where a transfer of directionality
could result in this situation.

Originally it was down from Broad Street to Camden Road and thence
Primrose Hill and Willesden, and also down from Broad Street to
Stratford (the North Woolwich branch was measured from Liverpool Street
via a long-ago removed southwest curve at Stratford).

When Broad Street closed, you had the odd situation of the line changing
direction at Dalston with no particular landmark. So the change of
direction was moved west to Camden Road, with everything being down from
there.


Thanks Clive, that clears that one up.

And as for the future, as Peter Masson said upthread...

"As for up/down, it seems that control is being transferred to
Upminster IECC, and directions will be consistent with what applies
there."

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote

Originally it was down from Broad Street to Camden Road and thence
Primrose Hill and Willesden, and also down from Broad Street to
Stratford (the North Woolwich branch was measured from Liverpool Street
via a long-ago removed southwest curve at Stratford).

The 1938 Bradshaw gives Broad Street to Camden Road and beyond, also Broad
Street to Finsbury Park and beyond, via the Canonbury Curve, as Down, but
Broad Street to Poplar as Up - which would be consistent with the early days
of the North London Railway when the City Terminus was Fenchurch Street, so
Camden Road - Dalston - Victoria Park - Bow - Fenchurch Street was Up.

Peter

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008, Mizter T wrote:

On 25 Apr, 12:07, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote:

In article , Tom
Anderson writes

Also, why is eastbound down and westbound up? Surely when the line ran
to Broad Street, it was the other way round? I can't immediately think
of any lines the NLL interacts with where a transfer of directionality
could result in this situation.

Originally it was down from Broad Street to Camden Road and thence
Primrose Hill and Willesden, and also down from Broad Street to
Stratford (the North Woolwich branch was measured from Liverpool Street
via a long-ago removed southwest curve at Stratford).

When Broad Street closed, you had the odd situation of the line changing
direction at Dalston with no particular landmark. So the change of
direction was moved west to Camden Road, with everything being down from
there.

I see. That makes a sort of sense. A pretty special sort, but sense
nonetheless.

Thanks Clive, that clears that one up.

And as for the future, as Peter Masson said upthread...

"As for up/down, it seems that control is being transferred to Upminster
IECC, and directions will be consistent with what applies there."

Is that fact, or speculation? I would have thought the way the line
interacts with the LNWR (at both Primrose Hill and Willesden) and the GN
(via Canonbury) and West Anglia (via Graham Road) would argue for an
east-up orientation. Although i don't suppose such harmony is really a
terribly important consideration.

What are the directions on the WLL and GOBLin? I'm guessing GOBLin up is
west, because of Barking, and WLL up is south, because of Willesden
Junction.

tom

--
It's never too late to change the future.

In article , Tom
Anderson writes
What are the directions on the WLL and GOBLin? I'm guessing GOBLin up
is west, because of Barking, and WLL up is south, because of Willesden
Junction.

GOBLIN is up to Gospel Oak and down to Barking. However, the link from
Carlton Road Jn to Junction Road Jn is the other way: down towards West
Hampstead and up towards Upper Holloway.

WLL is down to West London Jn (on the WCML) and up towards Clapham Jn.
The various branches stay that way, with a direction reversal at Falcom
Jn (the west end of platforms 14 to 17 at Clapham Jn). The Mitre Bridge
Curve from Willesden Jn to Mitre Bridge Jn is consistent with this,
meaning a direction reversal for trains coming out of WJ station towards
Kenny O.

[I'm not sure about the Latchmere Reversible, but the mileages are
consistent with up towards CJ.]

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

On Apr 10, 4:09*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Adrian" wrote

At one point the Met. considered building a mainline size tube to link
their "Main Line" to Edgware Road Station.

and Watkin considered a spur from the GC to the Circle Line - he intended
this to be used by his through expresses from Manchester to Paris via the
W**dh**d and C*****l Tunnels.

Peter

IIRC the foundations of the Great Central Hotel were designed
accordingly.