Steve Firth wrote:
Doug wrote:

Road congestion is primarily caused by too many cars and if left to
its own devices would be self-limiting.

The experience within Birmingham, when the entire traffic light system
failed, shows that if it were truly lef to its own devices that the
traffic would flow better than it does at present.

Where "traffic" doesn't include pedestrians or cyclists...

In message , at 11:45:29 on Sun, 17
Aug 2008, JNugent remarked:
I am not aware of any other significant highway building inside the M25
(whether inside or outside London) in the last 20 years, let alone 10.

If you expand the horizon to 20 years, then that brings into scope the
Limehouse Link (and obviously a whole bunch of local roads in Docklands
- but let's not get in a wrangle about how "significant" they are).

Also my 1988 map doesn't have the A12 extension through Leyton down to
Stratford, but I forget exactly when that opened.

On the other side of London they widened the A40, including the stretch
past Hillingdon, in the early 90's (the slightly relocated station
opened in 1992).

And I expect some of the widening of the North Circular was still taking
place in that timeframe too.
--
Roland Perry

John Rowland wrote:

Steve Firth wrote:
Doug wrote:

Road congestion is primarily caused by too many cars and if left to
its own devices would be self-limiting.

The experience within Birmingham, when the entire traffic light system
failed, shows that if it were truly lef to its own devices that the
traffic would flow better than it does at present.

Where "traffic" doesn't include pedestrians or cyclists...

And?

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:45:29 on Sun, 17
Aug 2008, JNugent remarked:
I am not aware of any other significant highway building inside the
M25 (whether inside or outside London) in the last 20 years, let alone
10.

If you expand the horizon to 20 years, then that brings into scope the
Limehouse Link (and obviously a whole bunch of local roads in Docklands
- but let's not get in a wrangle about how "significant" they are).

Also my 1988 map doesn't have the A12 extension through Leyton down to
Stratford, but I forget exactly when that opened.

On the other side of London they widened the A40, including the stretch
past Hillingdon, in the early 90's (the slightly relocated station
opened in 1992).

And I expect some of the widening of the North Circular was still taking
place in that timeframe too.

I have to admit that since my post I have thought of the Coulsden
bypass, but of course the people of Coulsden may have wanted that ( it
has not improved the trafic either)

--
Tony the Dragon

"Conor" wrote in message
...
In article 5a4a808e-6952-481d-b554-3098a9ed7a79@
59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com, Doug says...

Why cherry pick London where there isn't sufficient space available to
build new roads but M25 widening still seems to be ongoing?

Where is this widening happening, Doug? I can't recall seeing any this
year.

Over the
rest of UK there are loads of roads continually being built or
widened.

Actually, only a few stretches of the M1 are, Doug.


Locally there has been quite a bit of "road building" in reality it equates
to less than half a mile of fixing crap junctions that were put in when the
roads were first built because they were the quick cheap option. (Removing on
DC roundabouts and adding the ability to exit another DC from the other side
of the road without going up to the next junction then round and back).
Despite the council referring to it as road building it doesn't fool any of
us. Other than that there are some small roads being built in new build
housing estates but that's not adding to capacity as they are all effectively
dead ends.

Steve Firth wrote:
John Rowland wrote:

Steve Firth wrote:
Doug wrote:

Road congestion is primarily caused by too many cars and if left to
its own devices would be self-limiting.

The experience within Birmingham, when the entire traffic light
system failed, shows that if it were truly lef to its own devices
that the traffic would flow better than it does at present.

Where "traffic" doesn't include pedestrians or cyclists...

And?

You were implying traffic lights serve no useful purpose... if they enable
pedestrians to avoid getting run over, they serve a purpose, even if the
motor vehicles move better without them.

Roland Perry wrote:

On the other side of London they widened the A40,

Which is not new road building by any stretch of anyone's imagination.

JNugent wrote:
Richard J. wrote:

JNugent wrote:
Brimstone wrote:
Doug wrote:
(Steve Firth) wrote:

What new roads have been built in London (inside the M25) over the
last (say) ten years Doug?

I can name one:
"University Way" (part of the A206), which is inside the M25, but
which is not in London. The new-build part (which is now about ten
years old anyway) is in Dartford, Kent.
I am not aware of any other significant highway building inside the
M25 (whether inside or outside London) in the last 20 years, let
alone 10.
There are plenty of examples of Livingstonian road sabotage, though.
Witness the (former) A40 (M)

Westway? Looks much the same as it always was, apart from the lack
of lighting.

No longer subject to proper motorway regulations (purely in order to
bring it under Livingstone's control).

I'm not entirely convinced that it was ever a proper motorway, as the
relevant signs were blanked off many years before it became the A40, e.g.
the old "end of motorway" sign at the Edgware Road flyover. However, I
don't see that converting it from a motorway to an A road with restricted
access (no pedestrians for example) makes any practical difference as to how
useful it is.

and the disgrace of the wrecking of the (very useful) short stretch
of M41 at Shepherd's Bush.

In what sense has it been wrecked?

It was (part of) a motorway, six lanes and two hard shoulders.

Look at it now.

Since it's only half a mile long with a roundabout at each end, why would
you need six lanes? Even at an emotional level, I can't work up any concern
that it was the 6-lane M41 and is now the 4-lane A3220. It remains a useful
link with a quirky layout, as it's always been. To claim that it's been
wrecked is absurd.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

John Rowland wrote:

Steve Firth wrote:
John Rowland wrote:

Steve Firth wrote:
Doug wrote:

Road congestion is primarily caused by too many cars and if left to
its own devices would be self-limiting.

The experience within Birmingham, when the entire traffic light
system failed, shows that if it were truly lef to its own devices
that the traffic would flow better than it does at present.

Where "traffic" doesn't include pedestrians or cyclists...

And?

You were implying traffic lights serve no useful purpose...

No I wasn't. I was stating that without traffic lights the traffic flows
more smoothly than with. If you wish to infer from that that I am saying
that they perform no useful function then that is your inference, not my
implication.

if they enable pedestrians to avoid getting run over, they serve a
purpose, even if the motor vehicles move better without them.

You seem to be confused about the difference between traffic lights and
pedestrian crossings.

Doug wrote:
On 16 Aug, 14:48, (Steve Firth) wrote:
John Rowland wrote:
http://www.abd.org.uk/pr/634.htm
I'm not sure who the Association of British Drivers are, so I'm not sure how
much to read into this.
It's hardly news. Anyone working in transport/telematics already knew
that Livingstone had issued an edict that the lights across London were
to be rephased to cause congestion prior to the introduction of the
congestion charge. In fact I stated this was what was happening here at
the time and had the usual cabal of ****wits and some who should have
known better screaming that it was a lie.

Road congestion is primarily caused by too many cars and if left to
its own devices would be self-limiting. Indeed it could even result in
a reduction of car travel as motorists get fed up with so many delays
they are themselves responsible for. Unfortunately, our road spaces
are allowed to be demand driven resulting in perpetual roadbuilding
and widening and tinkering to the detriment of the environment and
quality of life of many people.

Whilst this is partly true it does not accept the fact that congestion
can be made artificially worse to a major degree using such measures as
traffic light phasing as has now been admitted and failure to build new
roads. This is where the tinkering has gone on for the last few years.

As Brimstone says, where are these roads that have been built inside the
M25? I haven't seen any.


--
John Wright

"What would happen if you eliminated the autism genes from the gene pool?

You would have a bunch of people standing around in a cave, chatting and
socialising and not getting anything done!" - Professor Temple Grandin