Mizter T wrote:

I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Cheers,

Barry

On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.


Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

I'm sure all will become clear over time.

Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an
insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual
explanation!

On 1 May, 15:36, Mizter T wrote:
On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

I'm sure all will become clear over time.

Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an
insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual
explanation!

I am intrigued by the concept of "zones passed through". And I still
wonder if, say, Mansion House to Victoria will now time out quicker
than Mansion House to St James's Park. Because the other discussion
of variable journey time suggested that shorter journey times would
apply as well.

On May 1, 3:42*pm, MIG wrote:

On 1 May, 15:36, Mizter T wrote:

On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

I'm sure all will become clear over time.

Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an
insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual
explanation!

I am intrigued by the concept of "zones passed through". [...]

In what way?

*[...] And I still
wonder if, say, Mansion House to Victoria will now time out quicker
than Mansion House to St James's Park. [...]

I *very* *much* doubt it. I'd imagine that *if* there was to be a
shorter journey time allowance the same would apply accross zone 1 -
but that is a big *if*...

[...] Because the other discussion
of variable journey time suggested that shorter journey times would
apply as well.

What recent discussion - the recent "Oyster time limit - changed
again?" utl thread[1]? If so, then (going by the five posts that
currently exist make up that thread) the only suggestion that shorter
permissible journey times might apply seems to come from you!

*If* (again big *if*) shorter permissible journey times were to be
implemented then I doubt it would be anything radical - perhaps all
journeys within zone 1 going back to the two hour time limit,
something like that.

I really don't think people should get worked up about some notion
that they're running against the clock on each journey they make,
especially when such notions are based on no evidence whatsoever!

As can be seen from the generous time allowances that are afforded to
passengers making out-of-station interchanges, the system has to be
based on people who dawdle (go to the wrong platform, go the wrong way
at least for one stop, take a long time climbing the stairs etc etc
etc), it can't be based on people who nip around quickly. That's only
logical.


-----
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...f45edc0a25169a

On 1 May, 16:18, Mizter T wrote:
On May 1, 3:42*pm, MIG wrote:





On 1 May, 15:36, Mizter T wrote:

On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

I'm sure all will become clear over time.

Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an
insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual
explanation!

I am intrigued by the concept of "zones passed through". [...]

In what way?

Zones actually passed through are not currently of concern to the
system, which calculates fares between points as long as the general
timeout hasn't been reached.

My understanding was that it doesn't actually know or care what zones
you pass through as long as you resolve the journey within the time
limit. I would expect it to apply the different time limits similarly
based on a fixed value determined for the start and end points of the
journey, rather than on zones passed through, which it can't know.

(Although there has been discussion of taking into account routes that
the system actually has evidence for, ie when you touch along the
way.)


*[...] And I still
wonder if, say, Mansion House to Victoria will now time out quicker
than Mansion House to St James's Park. [...]

I *very* *much* doubt it. I'd imagine that *if* there was to be a
shorter journey time allowance the same would apply accross zone 1 -
but that is a big *if*...

[...] Because the other discussion
of variable journey time suggested that shorter journey times would
apply as well.

What recent discussion - the recent "Oyster time limit - changed
again?" utl thread[1]? If so, then (going by the five posts that
currently exist make up that thread) the only suggestion that shorter
permissible journey times might apply seems to come from you!

Eh? That thread begain with a link to this
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf
were it states that sometimes the time limit will be 70 minutes. I
thought it used to be 120 minutes, and later increased to 150. If
not, please ignore.

But if not wrong,I am wondering if this means that, if one of the
named stations is the end point, ALL variable journey times, including
shorter ones, will be applied, but that at others they won't be for
the time being.


*If* (again big *if*) shorter permissible journey times were to be
implemented then I doubt it would be anything radical - perhaps all
journeys within zone 1 going back to the two hour time limit,
something like that.

I really don't think people should get worked up about some notion
that they're running against the clock on each journey they make,
especially when such notions are based on no evidence whatsoever!

As can be seen from the generous time allowances that are afforded to
passengers making out-of-station interchanges, the system has to be
based on people who dawdle (go to the wrong platform, go the wrong way
at least for one stop, take a long time climbing the stairs etc etc
etc), it can't be based on people who nip around quickly. That's only
logical.

-----http://groups.google.com/group/uk.transport.london/browse_frm/thread/...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Fri, 1 May 2009 07:36:10 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T wrote:

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

Yes, I think that would have to be the case - e.g. so someone exiting
at Hanger Lane for an OSI to Park Royal would get the time limit
adjusted (presumably adding extra time) for the *whole* journey, not
just the first leg. I can't see why else the list would consist mostly
of OSI stations.

The list also suggests that this will apply to intermediate
validators, as it includes stations that have no apparent significance
other than being interchanges at the tip of a 'V' (i.e. where you are
heading out of the zones and then can turn back so you are heading
inwards, or vice versa). This suggests that, for example:

- Travellers from Northwood to Heathrow will have to touch
inetrmediate validators (on the platform/footbridge) at Rayners Lane
and Acton Town, to extend their time limit and so avoid exceeding the
maximum time for a Z3456 journey

- Travellers from Upminster Bridge to Epping will have to touch at
West Ham or Mile End for a time extension to avoid overrunning the
Z(2)3456 limit

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Similarly for Gospel Oak to Barons Court (Z23, touching at
Gunnersbury) and Upper Holloway to Bromley-By-Bow (Z234, touching at
Barking).

Of course, since the (reduced) variable limits aren't applied at the
destination (Bromley-By-Bow in the last example), the time extensions
aren't actually required yet - but presumably this is the first phase
in a phased introduction.

That doesn't explain all of the stations on the list, though - I'm
still mystified as to why odd-ones-out like Bond Street are included.
Perhaps it's just as a trial as part of the phased introduction.

In article ,
lid (asdf) wrote:

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Where would one touch then? I don't recall seeing any validators on the
District platforms.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sun, 03 May 2009 18:45:20 -0500,
wrote:

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Where would one touch then? I don't recall seeing any validators on the
District platforms.

I'm assuming some validators will be put in. If it doesn't happen then
my speculation is incorrect (perhaps fortunately - it'd be a pain to
have to remember to touch on the platform).

On May 4, 2:00*pm, asdf wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2009 18:45:20 -0500,
wrote:

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Where would one touch then? I don't recall seeing any validators on the
District platforms.

I'm assuming some validators will be put in. If it doesn't happen then
my speculation is incorrect (perhaps fortunately - it'd be a pain to
have to remember to touch on the platform).

As Mizter T pointed out, the limits are generous enough that people
aren't likely to be "against the clock" (and my other question about
whether shorter time limits will be applied wasn't meant to imply
that),

(If people really had to leap out of trains to touch validators at
places like Earls Court it would hardly be healthy or safe. Would
they leave their luggage on the train? It would be too bonkers even
for TfL under the rules of Oyster.)

And in any case, surely that journey would be priced assuming zone 1,
and therefore also timed assuming zone 1? It would be bizarre if
different assumptions about "zones passed through" was applied to
setting fares from setting timeouts.

But there's no point getting worked up about speculation. It's more
worth getting worked up about the fact that a major change seems to be
taking place, but no meaningful information is available about what it
is.

On May 4, 2:47*pm, MIG wrote:
On May 4, 2:00*pm, asdf wrote:

On Sun, 03 May 2009 18:45:20 -0500,
wrote:

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Where would one touch then? I don't recall seeing any validators on the
District platforms.

I'm assuming some validators will be put in. If it doesn't happen then
my speculation is incorrect (perhaps fortunately - it'd be a pain to
have to remember to touch on the platform).

As Mizter T pointed out, the limits are generous enough that people
aren't likely to be "against the clock" (and my other question about
whether shorter time limits will be applied wasn't meant to imply
that),

(If people really had to leap out of trains to touch validators at
places like Earls Court it would hardly be healthy or safe. *Would
they leave their luggage on the train? *It would be too bonkers even
for TfL under the rules of Oyster.)

And in any case, surely that journey would be priced assuming zone 1,
and therefore also timed assuming zone 1? *It would be bizarre if
different assumptions about "zones passed through" was applied to
setting fares from setting timeouts.

Sorry, it never occurred to me that Earls Court was boundary zone 2,
but it seems that it is.


But there's no point getting worked up about speculation. *It's more
worth getting worked up about the fact that a major change seems to be
taking place, but no meaningful information is available about what it
is.