"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On Apr 30, 12:06 pm, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Barry Salter" wrote:
As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National
Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time of 2.5
hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be
applied
when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

It looks like I might have benefited from this last week. My journey was
Brighton to Hanger Lane return, using my NR season as far as CLJ, then
Oyster PAYG via Shepherd's Bush. From CLJ:

I touched in on platform 16 at 10:34.

I touched out at SPB (NR) and almost then in on the Central line.

I touched out at Hanger Lane at about 11:10.

I then reversed the journey from Hanger Lane starting shortly after
13:00.
At CLJ I arrived on platform 2, and I had had got most of the way along
the
footbridge when I realised I had forgotten to touch out. I went to
platform
17 and touched out there at 13:59.

The weird part is that the online journey history only shows the 10:34
entry
at CLJ and the 13:59 exit at CLJ, total charge £1.80. I assume that if I
had
spent longer at Hanger Lane it would have got split into two journeys -
but
how long?


That doesn't make much sense to me at all. The total charge of £1.80
in particular is nonsensical - £1.80 isn't a fare band that currently
applies to PAYG journeys at all - see the fares table on page 5 of
this PDF:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf

You should have been charged £2.20 overall - i.e. 2 x £1.10 fares
(there being an out-of-station interchange at Shepherd's Bush).

My maths went wrong somewhere ... I was charged £1.10 for a journey from CLJ
to CLJ. The online journey history doesn't acknowledge that I ever went near
SPB or Hanger Lane.

However even if you touched-in/out on a standalone reader, then the
time that elapsed between you exiting Hangar Lane and then re-entering
the system there (i.e. almost two hours) is simply too long for any
such confusion to occur.

I went through the *normal* gates at Hanger Lane. I would have thought this
should have terminated a journey within quite a short time because there is
no possibility of me continuing a journey by some other route from there ...
or maybe there is an out of station interchange (Park Royal?) enabled at
Hanger Lane.

D A Stocks

On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.


Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

I'm sure all will become clear over time.

Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an
insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual
explanation!

On 1 May, 15:36, Mizter T wrote:
On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

I'm sure all will become clear over time.

Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an
insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual
explanation!

I am intrigued by the concept of "zones passed through". And I still
wonder if, say, Mansion House to Victoria will now time out quicker
than Mansion House to St James's Park. Because the other discussion
of variable journey time suggested that shorter journey times would
apply as well.

On May 1, 3:42*pm, MIG wrote:

On 1 May, 15:36, Mizter T wrote:

On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

I'm sure all will become clear over time.

Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an
insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual
explanation!

I am intrigued by the concept of "zones passed through". [...]

In what way?

*[...] And I still
wonder if, say, Mansion House to Victoria will now time out quicker
than Mansion House to St James's Park. [...]

I *very* *much* doubt it. I'd imagine that *if* there was to be a
shorter journey time allowance the same would apply accross zone 1 -
but that is a big *if*...

[...] Because the other discussion
of variable journey time suggested that shorter journey times would
apply as well.

What recent discussion - the recent "Oyster time limit - changed
again?" utl thread[1]? If so, then (going by the five posts that
currently exist make up that thread) the only suggestion that shorter
permissible journey times might apply seems to come from you!

*If* (again big *if*) shorter permissible journey times were to be
implemented then I doubt it would be anything radical - perhaps all
journeys within zone 1 going back to the two hour time limit,
something like that.

I really don't think people should get worked up about some notion
that they're running against the clock on each journey they make,
especially when such notions are based on no evidence whatsoever!

As can be seen from the generous time allowances that are afforded to
passengers making out-of-station interchanges, the system has to be
based on people who dawdle (go to the wrong platform, go the wrong way
at least for one stop, take a long time climbing the stairs etc etc
etc), it can't be based on people who nip around quickly. That's only
logical.


-----
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...f45edc0a25169a

On 1 May, 16:18, Mizter T wrote:
On May 1, 3:42*pm, MIG wrote:





On 1 May, 15:36, Mizter T wrote:

On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

I'm sure all will become clear over time.

Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an
insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual
explanation!

I am intrigued by the concept of "zones passed through". [...]

In what way?

Zones actually passed through are not currently of concern to the
system, which calculates fares between points as long as the general
timeout hasn't been reached.

My understanding was that it doesn't actually know or care what zones
you pass through as long as you resolve the journey within the time
limit. I would expect it to apply the different time limits similarly
based on a fixed value determined for the start and end points of the
journey, rather than on zones passed through, which it can't know.

(Although there has been discussion of taking into account routes that
the system actually has evidence for, ie when you touch along the
way.)


*[...] And I still
wonder if, say, Mansion House to Victoria will now time out quicker
than Mansion House to St James's Park. [...]

I *very* *much* doubt it. I'd imagine that *if* there was to be a
shorter journey time allowance the same would apply accross zone 1 -
but that is a big *if*...

[...] Because the other discussion
of variable journey time suggested that shorter journey times would
apply as well.

What recent discussion - the recent "Oyster time limit - changed
again?" utl thread[1]? If so, then (going by the five posts that
currently exist make up that thread) the only suggestion that shorter
permissible journey times might apply seems to come from you!

Eh? That thread begain with a link to this
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf
were it states that sometimes the time limit will be 70 minutes. I
thought it used to be 120 minutes, and later increased to 150. If
not, please ignore.

But if not wrong,I am wondering if this means that, if one of the
named stations is the end point, ALL variable journey times, including
shorter ones, will be applied, but that at others they won't be for
the time being.


*If* (again big *if*) shorter permissible journey times were to be
implemented then I doubt it would be anything radical - perhaps all
journeys within zone 1 going back to the two hour time limit,
something like that.

I really don't think people should get worked up about some notion
that they're running against the clock on each journey they make,
especially when such notions are based on no evidence whatsoever!

As can be seen from the generous time allowances that are afforded to
passengers making out-of-station interchanges, the system has to be
based on people who dawdle (go to the wrong platform, go the wrong way
at least for one stop, take a long time climbing the stairs etc etc
etc), it can't be based on people who nip around quickly. That's only
logical.

-----http://groups.google.com/group/uk.transport.london/browse_frm/thread/...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Mizter T wrote
[snip]
I touched in on platform 16 at 10:34.

I touched out at SPB (NR) and almost then in on the Central line.

I touched out at Hanger Lane at about 11:10.

I then reversed the journey from Hanger Lane starting shortly
after
13:00. At CLJ I arrived on platform 2, and I had had got most of
[snip]
There is indeed an out-of-station interchange configured between
Hanger Lane and Park Royal - see the list of OSIs here [1]:
http://www.dragondark.co.uk/osi/osi.htm

That might sort-of of explains it. However, an OSI is of course for
people transferring between stations - logically one would have
thought that re-entering the *same* station (especially through the
gates, which provide unambiguous entry and exit points to the system)
would mean any potential OSI considerations on that card were
cancelled and a brand new journey started.

Furthermore, the OSI list above (accurate as of November '08) shows
that up to 25 minutes is allowed for when transferring between Hangar
Lane and Park Royal.

The above journey included another OSI, SPB (Shepherds Bush) which is
new and which I don't know the allowance for but the weird result may
be due to it or to the combination.

Has anyone reported on OSI results when re-entering the *same* station,
eg at Bow Road ?

--
Mike D

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01c9cabb$bcb76340$LocalHost@default...

The above journey included another OSI, SPB (Shepherds Bush) which is
new and which I don't know the allowance for but the weird result may
be due to it or to the combination.

I was impressed by the interchange with the Central Line, which is
easier/better than the National Rail to Underground interchanges at most
London termini. However, the OSI at SPB probably allows for people wanting
to get at the Hammersmith & City line as well.

One can begin to understand some of the concerns the TOCs may have about
implementing Oyster on NR. I assume my entry and exit data is stored in a
system somewhere, and I can imagine auditors could have a bit of fun
reconciling this with the three operators involved for the purposes of
revenue allocation ...

D A Stocks

On Fri, 1 May 2009 07:36:10 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T wrote:

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

Yes, I think that would have to be the case - e.g. so someone exiting
at Hanger Lane for an OSI to Park Royal would get the time limit
adjusted (presumably adding extra time) for the *whole* journey, not
just the first leg. I can't see why else the list would consist mostly
of OSI stations.

The list also suggests that this will apply to intermediate
validators, as it includes stations that have no apparent significance
other than being interchanges at the tip of a 'V' (i.e. where you are
heading out of the zones and then can turn back so you are heading
inwards, or vice versa). This suggests that, for example:

- Travellers from Northwood to Heathrow will have to touch
inetrmediate validators (on the platform/footbridge) at Rayners Lane
and Acton Town, to extend their time limit and so avoid exceeding the
maximum time for a Z3456 journey

- Travellers from Upminster Bridge to Epping will have to touch at
West Ham or Mile End for a time extension to avoid overrunning the
Z(2)3456 limit

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Similarly for Gospel Oak to Barons Court (Z23, touching at
Gunnersbury) and Upper Holloway to Bromley-By-Bow (Z234, touching at
Barking).

Of course, since the (reduced) variable limits aren't applied at the
destination (Bromley-By-Bow in the last example), the time extensions
aren't actually required yet - but presumably this is the first phase
in a phased introduction.

That doesn't explain all of the stations on the list, though - I'm
still mystified as to why odd-ones-out like Bond Street are included.
Perhaps it's just as a trial as part of the phased introduction.

In article ,
lid (asdf) wrote:

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Where would one touch then? I don't recall seeing any validators on the
District platforms.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sun, 03 May 2009 18:45:20 -0500,
wrote:

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Where would one touch then? I don't recall seeing any validators on the
District platforms.

I'm assuming some validators will be put in. If it doesn't happen then
my speculation is incorrect (perhaps fortunately - it'd be a pain to
have to remember to touch on the platform).