London Banter - Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted

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Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:10:39 -0000, "DavidR"
wrote:

"NM" wrote

Yeah great view, especially for those who are stuck with living in
concrete jungles, If they can get access to a car they can at least
experience what life is like beyond walking/bus distances.

Most concrete jungles and drab housing estates seem to have been created
around the car. Had they not been built perhaps people would not be
screaming to get out.

You are not making yourself clear.

The first "Concrete Jungle" was a reference in a 1961 movie to New
York City.

The second was in a sleazy 1982 movie about lesbians and innocents in
a women's prison.

In what sense were these "created around the car" ?

A common interpretation is that of poor people living in poor quality
socialised housing systems, served by socialised medicine, IE the NHS.
Socialised transport systems, I.E. public transport, and everybody
gets educated in a nice socialised education system AKA a "Bog
Standard Comprehensive" (TM) Blunkett..

Ever waited for a bus in Drumchapel, Castlemilk, or Blackbird Leys?

Quote from a colleague from Glasgow "She came from Easterhouse so
she's no education"

DG

Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted

"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message
...
"iantheengineer" wrote in message
...

"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message
...
"iantheengineer" wrote in message
...

Not at all I have a car my wife has a car we enjoy days out in the
car.
The
continentals actually have higher levels of car ownership, just they
use
them less.

Can you give details of that lower car use than the UK ?

Does anyone quote the sopurce of facts in this NG but anyway

this makes part of the point

http://www.cfit.gov.uk/reports/ebptbench/05.htm

about modal split.

The claim that a higher proportion of journeys is by car,
even if true, does not show that there is higher car use.

The rest of the point was in the broadsheets, however it is repeated
here
for your enjoyment.

http://www.cfit.gov.uk/research/ebp/key/01.htm

I can't see anything there about levels of car use.

I quote

A central cause of these high congestion levels is that British people make
more use of cars than any other European country, despite having below
average car ownership. Almost nine out of ten motorised journeys (car, bus,
motorbike) in the UK are by car, compared with an EU average of just over
eight out of ten.

This proves my point whole heatedly but no doubt memebers of this NG will
question the data, but what can you do, people will always doubt studies
unless they themselves do them

Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted

"PeterE" wrote in message
...
iantheengineer wrote:

Speed humps are used to prevent speeding idiots and save lives. Do you
REALLY think that a local authority with limited funds would waste it
n putting in humps for the sake of it.

Yes. Otherwise why do we see speed humps being installed while at the same
time the roads are full of potholes?

And they don't save lives. Ask the Ambulance Service.

--
http://www.speedlimit.org.uk
"If laws are to be respected, they must be worthy of respect."

Yes they do I can produce the stats if required from ROSPA that have been
statistically proven to a 90-95% confidence interval, however no doubt you
will doubt these, I have given up with this NG. They seem to think that
government bodies sit thinking of ways to waste momey and alienate the
public, dont you think you are missing the bigger picture???

I have in the past worked for government bodies and in my opinion they
operate better than the private sector, however the private sector is
prepared to flount rules and legislation the public sector cannot.

Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:48:47 -0000, "iantheengineer"
wrote:

http://www.cfit.gov.uk/research/ebp/key/01.htm

I can't see anything there about levels of car use.

A central cause of these high congestion levels is that British people make
more use of cars than any other European country, despite having below
average car ownership. Almost nine out of ten motorised journeys (car, bus,
motorbike) in the UK are by car, compared with an EU average of just over
eight out of ten.

This proves my point whole heatedly but no doubt memebers of this NG will
question the data, but what can you do, people will always doubt studies
unless they themselves do them

This seems far more balanced and reasonable to me:

http://www.conservatives.com/getfile.../1664&type=pdf
--
Paul Smith
Scotland, UK
http://www.safespeed.org.uk
please remove "XYZ" to reply by email
speed cameras cost lives

Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:53:35 -0000, "iantheengineer"
wrote:

Speed humps are used to prevent speeding idiots and save lives. Do you
REALLY think that a local authority with limited funds would waste it
n putting in humps for the sake of it.

Yes. Otherwise why do we see speed humps being installed while at the same
time the roads are full of potholes?

And they don't save lives. Ask the Ambulance Service.

Yes they do I can produce the stats if required from ROSPA that have been
statistically proven to a 90-95% confidence interval, however no doubt you
will doubt these, I have given up with this NG. They seem to think that
government bodies sit thinking of ways to waste momey and alienate the
public, dont you think you are missing the bigger picture???

I've read plenty of research on speed bumps effectiveness been
completely unimpressed. For example, has any research ever allowed for
the loss of life in delayed ambulances (expect the recent work by the
London Ambulance service of course).

How much have they ever allowed for traffic displacement, regression
to the mean, and increases in pedestrian carelessness? Have they ever
tried to evaluate the effect of weakened suspension and shock
absorbers on apparently unrelated accidents? (to name a few examples).
And if they haven't, how the hell are we to judge which effects are
the largest?

And why on earth are 20mph zone accidents more likely to result in
death or serious injury?

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/percentages.html
--
Paul Smith
Scotland, UK
http://www.safespeed.org.uk
please remove "XYZ" to reply by email
speed cameras cost lives

Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted

"iantheengineer" wrote in message
...

"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message
...
"iantheengineer" wrote in message
...

"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message
...
"iantheengineer" wrote in message
...

Not at all I have a car my wife has a car we enjoy days out in the
car.
The
continentals actually have higher levels of car ownership, just they
use
them less.

Can you give details of that lower car use than the UK ?

I can't see anything there about levels of car use.

I quote

A central cause of these high congestion levels is that British people make
more use of cars than any other European country, despite having below
average car ownership. Almost nine out of ten motorised journeys (car, bus,
motorbike) in the UK are by car, compared with an EU average of just over
eight out of ten.

That claims that other countries make many more journeys
by motorbikes, not make less use of cars.

This proves my point whole heatedly but no doubt memebers of this NG will
question the data, but what can you do, people will always doubt studies
unless they themselves do them

I see no numbers for passenger miles in cars for any countries.
(even though the latest ones are at http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups
/dft_transstats/documents/page/dft_transstats_025223.pdf

Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted

"derek" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 20:01:41 -0000, "iantheengineer"
wrote:

"derek" wrote in message
.. .

Im afraid countless studies have found that roadbuilding is not the
answer
to the problem.

Countless?

Who's doin' the countin'? Under what circumstances?

By your reckoning road destruction *IS* a solution.

From what you say we'd be better off just dynamiteing all the bridges
on our motorways because roads just breed cars. So let's block all the
motorways and issue everybody with rose tinted seebackrascopes and
we'll all go back to living like we did in 1956 without motorways..

People have chosen to travel through the freedomn of choice
that roads and increased wealth have given them, thus perpetuating the
problem.

To continue to build roads will continue the problem. The answer is
puvblic
transport, but public transport cannot cater for all journeys and
therefore
over time journeys will need to become more corridored. For example go
into
any city during the am peak and the tidality of the flow is there to be
seen. IF we were to get all of the people from their cars onto public
transport, or even better living nearer to the workplace, the congestion
would be far less. No doubt you have a big swanky car that has one person
in
it most of the time taking up all of that roadspace, when really all most
people need arte a seat.

If roads are expected to last we need to reduce the wear and tear on them
whic in itself has been brought about by the greater use of road
transport

That's just an indication we don't have enough roads because the one's
we have are overloaded..

(the main damage to roads actually aoccurs from HGVs and PSVs, however
PSVs
transport peoiple more effectively).

Not when they're running round empty. My (molto swanky) car does not
however run around empty.

This again needs more of us out of our
cars. Without cars on the urban road network public transport would be
faster and more reliable.

I see no proof of that.

As for the maintenence of roads well normally it involves patching
(completed very quickly around 2 hours)

Are you for real or what? 2 hours? *2* Hours ! The M1 around Long
Eaton in Notts has had ongoing works for what seems to be 2-3 years.

It takes tham longer than 2 hours to put the cones out!

The bridge over the river Dove on the A38 near Derby (An alternative
route to the M1 above, don't I know it!) has been subject to repairs
(Messing about with) on and off for 5+ years.

The Tinsley viaduct on the M1 at Meadowhall, Sheffield, has been
restricted to 2 lanes for the last 10 - 15 ? years. these restrictions
recently made semi-permanent pending an actual permanent repair in 2
years time. Hey, real soon now !

or overlaying (approx 2 days). oNly

Follow the yellow brick road, Follow the yellow brick road..

Follow..
Follow..
Follow..
Follow..
Follow..

Follow.. The yellow brick road.

Some.. where.. Over the rainbow..

Roads are fixed in 2 hours and resurfaced in 2 days!

Why then, Oh why aren't mine?

on rare occassions is a complete reconstruction carried out, and as I
have
said this wear and tear is due to use not age.

But as you said yourself it's PSVs (mostly running empty) and HGVs
that do the damage.

I think your justification using ethernet capacity is a bit irrelevant.
We
know that building more roads is

The experiences of those of us who have had to deal with Ethernet
networks demonstrates how the performance of the network declines very
dramatically as the number of instances of collisions, queuing, and
re-transmitts increases as saturation is reached. That's what "2 Jags
Prescott. Bus lanes? that's what they're there for" wanted to achieve
with the motorways to get us onto the trains, but then the railways
collapsed., and he'd wasted 4-5 years whilst the problem got worse.
Tosser!.

a) environmentally damaging

No, we have already established in this thread that motorways cover an
entirely trivial proportion of this country with concrete/tarmac. Some
cars emit exhaust gases of a better standard than the air they
aspirate, the "swanky" ones are at the better end of the performance
stakes, so the more the better, they should get a tax rebate,
(seriously!). That is if *you* are serious about reducing pollution.

b) increases usage so essentially provides no longterm greater net
capacity.

Just a symptom of the fact that the existing road system is 2-5? times
overloaded.

So where do you stop, when the whole country is one great network of
asphalt???

It seems that motorways currently use up one two thousandth of the
surface of this country. So that is not a currently a limiting factor.

How about at the same point as you stop producing food, stop building
houses, building schools, and stop building hospitals?

When the need is met, stoopid.

Why not use the technologies to reduce travel more???

A very good question.

It seems the Great British public aren't ready for it. Maybe the
technology is not good enough yet. Do you imagine I could sell a
£25,000 machine by sending a media message picture of it to a
customers mobile phone? Or by setting up a poxy 20 minute, low
resolution, smeary video conferencing session? How do I do the routine
maintenance on it, once it's sold and installed? It's in Torquay BTW
480 KM and 5 hours 11 mins away in my "swanky" car. BTW I have 7 CWT
of tools, spare parts, test equipment, and manuals with me. Fuel cost
£65.00

Nat Express 10 hours 5 minutes. (What about me bits?) £47 +£40 Taxis +
2 additional hotel nights @ £108.00

Railtrack 6 hours 32 minutes (What about me bits?) £155 +£40 taxis +1
additional hotel night @£54.00

DG

Lets face it Derek, you will never get your arse out of your car until the
carbon monoxide from the polluted atmosphere leaks into it and we all die a
horrible death.

What business are you in needing all these tools?

Do you only travel for business? Do you never travel for other reasons???No
amount of fact figures, studies will ever change your mind as you, and many
others in this NG only believe what they want to believe so that they can
sleep soundly at night.

In answer to your question about who does the maintenance on your product
well what can I say. You sold the product to them to inflate your pockets.
If you couldnt have provided it someone else would have in the locality or
they would have managed with what they had got perviously.

As for the roadworks it obviously depends upon the length of works and the
type of works. When you next go past try opening your eyes and assessing
what work is being carried out. Obviously if you are patching its a quick
job, if you are relaying then it is a much bigger task, if you are fittimg
safety fencing / lighting or drainage then it takes even longer. Surely in
whatever it is that you do, some jobs take longer than others.

For your sort of work it isnt realistic to expect you to use public
transport, but there are many other jobs that use cars, where PT could be
used. Most office workers commute to a city with a briefcase. If they werent
on the road then you would have less congestion.

Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted

"NM" wrote in message
m...
iantheengineer wrote:

"Paul Weaver" wrote in message
.. .

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:59:51 +0000, iantheengineer wrote:

What about all the other people???? Do you forget the miners strikes
when

I don't much care. You see in the private industry if your company
doesnt
sell Cheaply, it goes bust, shareholders lose big time, normal workers
move to other industries, they adapt, or should.

good ol MT decided to close all of the pits so we imported cheap coal
from Africa. Now most of the pits have closed Africas coal price has
risen dramatically, oh yeah she was an absolute genius! Any 5 year old
could have seen that coming

Of course instead of depleteing our coal reserves we still have them, so
in 50 years When there's hardly any left, we can reopen the pits and
make
big bucks.

Okay who is going to fund the re-opening of the flooded and unsafe
mines???

You??

Anyone who can see a profit in it

and now it will cost millions to get them workable again, oh yeah, MT what a
great economic brain