On Jul 9, 2:11*pm, MIG wrote:

On 9 July, 13:26, Commuter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
You're going to have to provide more comprehensive information about
what journeys you made if we're going to try and fathom this out.

Well I'd done the journey Heron Quays to Woolwich Arsenal (changing at
Poplar) and touched in at Heron Quays and out at Woolwich Arsenal
(ticket barriers).

*From my statement, the journeys before we
"Marble Arch - Tower Hill
* Marble Arch - Canary Wharf DLR
* Marble Arch - Canary Wharf"

Interesting that it's put Marble Arch - Canary Wharf as two separate
journeys when it was only one, but wasn't charged due to price capping
which had already been reached. (I had done Marble Arch - Canary Wharf
DLR and then entered Canary Wharf LU and exited straight away.

I still can't see how it could have happened. Surely if you have an
unfinished and an unstarted journey then they are the same journey and
should be charged accordingly (due to capping, no price).

How long did you spend at Canary Wharf? *I assume you got there via
Jubilee and touched out at the Jubilee station.

I assume he got there by DLR - via a Tower Hill to Tower Gateway OSI.


So the issue may be around whether it was taken as one long
interchange and timed you out for the overall journey.

In that case it would mean that it took Heron Quays as the start of
the last leg (rather than the start of the journey) and that the
journey was unfinished because the time from Marble Arch to Woolwich
Arsenal was more than two hours (or the time limit at the time) more
likely if there is a particularly generous interchange time allowed at
Canary Wharf/Heron Quays.

That's my basic thinking on the matter as well (see my other post).


The statement is weird, but I think it's been established that
inaccuracy in the statement doesn't necessarily imply inaccuracy in
the calculation of fares.

Yes, but the statement isn't weird actually - at least not the three
lines he's provided to us - they make perfect sense. When OSIs are
concerned, then the starting station on each line always shows as the
original station where the overall journey began (in this case Marble
Arch).

Mizter T wrote:

As I said above, it seems likely you've been caught out by the journey
'timing-out'. Whether the trial arrangements for variable maximum
journeys times implemented at Canary Wharf LU and DLR stations has
something to do with this I can't quite say.

One other important question - how long were you around Canary Wharf
for, i.e. were there any significant gaps between exiting and entering
the CW DLR and/or LU stations and Heron Quays DLR station. And have
you any idea of the time of the overall Marble Arch to Woolwich
Arsenal journey?

I think your explanation is perfectly sound, and whatever the time limit
was, it clicked in after leaving Heron Quays, but before Woolwich. If the
journey HAD met the time requirements I presume the statement would have
been a single journey shown like this, in other words listing the four OSIs
passed through as the journey proceeds?

Marble Arch - Tower Hill
Marble Arch - Canary Wharf DLR
Marble Arch - Canary Wharf
Marble Arch - Heron Quays
Marble Arch - Woolwich Arsenal

Having timed out, as we suspect, IMHO a better explanation of what had
happened would be if the statement had shown:

Marble Arch unfinished
Unstarted - Woolwich Arsenal

Paul S

On 9 July, 14:24, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 9, 2:11*pm, MIG wrote:





On 9 July, 13:26, Commuter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
You're going to have to provide more comprehensive information about
what journeys you made if we're going to try and fathom this out.

Well I'd done the journey Heron Quays to Woolwich Arsenal (changing at
Poplar) and touched in at Heron Quays and out at Woolwich Arsenal
(ticket barriers).

*From my statement, the journeys before we
"Marble Arch - Tower Hill
* Marble Arch - Canary Wharf DLR
* Marble Arch - Canary Wharf"

Interesting that it's put Marble Arch - Canary Wharf as two separate
journeys when it was only one, but wasn't charged due to price capping
which had already been reached. (I had done Marble Arch - Canary Wharf
DLR and then entered Canary Wharf LU and exited straight away.

I still can't see how it could have happened. Surely if you have an
unfinished and an unstarted journey then they are the same journey and
should be charged accordingly (due to capping, no price).

How long did you spend at Canary Wharf? *I assume you got there via
Jubilee and touched out at the Jubilee station.

I assume he got there by DLR - via a Tower Hill to Tower Gateway OSI.


Duh. Yes, that bit where he explicitly mentioned Tower Hill was the
clue that I missed.

So the issue may be around whether it was taken as one long
interchange and timed you out for the overall journey.

In that case it would mean that it took Heron Quays as the start of
the last leg (rather than the start of the journey) and that the
journey was unfinished because the time from Marble Arch to Woolwich
Arsenal was more than two hours (or the time limit at the time) more
likely if there is a particularly generous interchange time allowed at
Canary Wharf/Heron Quays.

That's my basic thinking on the matter as well (see my other post).



The statement is weird, but I think it's been established that
inaccuracy in the statement doesn't necessarily imply inaccuracy in
the calculation of fares.

Yes, but the statement isn't weird actually - at least not the three
lines he's provided to us - they make perfect sense. When OSIs are
concerned, then the starting station on each line always shows as the
original station where the overall journey began (in this case Marble
Arch).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I assume he got there by DLR - via a Tower Hill to Tower Gateway OSI.

Yes, that's correct. Marble Arch (touch in) - Tower Hill (touch out);
Tower Gateway DLR (touch in) - Westferry - Canary Wharf DLR (touch out).

I then did what I had to do in Canary Wharf and went to get the Jubilee
Line - noticed the platform was packed and the next train 7 mins away so
left the station and walked to Heron Quay and then got DLR to Poplar and
then to Woolwich Arsenal.

So the issue may be around whether it was taken as one long
interchange and timed you out for the overall journey.

In that case it would mean that it took Heron Quays as the start of
the last leg (rather than the start of the journey) and that the
journey was unfinished because the time from Marble Arch to Woolwich
Arsenal was more than two hours (or the time limit at the time) more
likely if there is a particularly generous interchange time allowed at
Canary Wharf/Heron Quays.

That's my basic thinking on the matter as well (see my other post).

The statement is weird, but I think it's been established that
inaccuracy in the statement doesn't necessarily imply inaccuracy in
the calculation of fares.

Yes, but the statement isn't weird actually - at least not the three
lines he's provided to us - they make perfect sense. When OSIs are
concerned, then the starting station on each line always shows as the
original station where the overall journey began (in this case Marble
Arch).

Thanks for the explanation both of you, which would also explain why the
only times I have had this problem before involve the DLR and the three
stations around Canary Wharf.

I don't understand though why it happens. It is reasonable to class
Marble Arch - Woolwich Arsenal as one journey, but there is no logical
reason why anyone would travel through Canary Wharf to do that journey
and it should instead be two journeys; Marble Arch - Canary Wharf DLR
and Heron Quays DLR - Woolwich Arsenal DLR.

On 9 July, 14:54, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
As I said above, it seems likely you've been caught out by the journey
'timing-out'. Whether the trial arrangements for variable maximum
journeys times implemented at Canary Wharf LU and DLR stations has
something to do with this I can't quite say.

One other important question - how long were you around Canary Wharf
for, i.e. were there any significant gaps between exiting and entering
the CW DLR and/or LU stations and Heron Quays DLR station. And have
you any idea of the time of the overall Marble Arch to Woolwich
Arsenal journey?

I think your explanation is perfectly sound, and whatever the time limit
was, it clicked in after leaving Heron Quays, but before Woolwich. If the
journey HAD met the time requirements I presume the statement would have
been a single journey shown like this, in other words listing the four OSIs
passed through as the journey proceeds?

Marble Arch - Tower Hill
Marble Arch - Canary Wharf DLR
Marble Arch - Canary Wharf
Marble Arch - Heron Quays
Marble Arch - Woolwich Arsenal

Having timed out, as we suspect, *IMHO a better explanation of what had
happened would be if the statement had shown:

Marble Arch unfinished
Unstarted - Woolwich Arsenal

Paul S

And we hope that with the changes to take into account cheaper route
options, evidenced by touching en route, the system will no longer
disregard the fact that it knows where the punter is and will restart
the timer as OSIs as well.

After all, if you've touched at Heron Quays, there is no possibility
that you've spent two hours in the pub at an ungated location, so you
aren't the intended catcheree-out of the time limit.

It might end up as two journeys instead of one, but I can't see why
that isn't possible.

On 9 July, 15:42, Commuter wrote:
I don't understand though why it happens. It is reasonable to class
Marble Arch - Woolwich Arsenal as one journey, but there is no logical
reason why anyone would travel through Canary Wharf to do that journey
and it should instead be two journeys; Marble Arch - Canary Wharf DLR
and Heron Quays DLR - Woolwich Arsenal DLR.

Sadly the software doesn't work like that - it only cares about
closing and/or extending the current journey. Your trip into Canary
Wharf LUL seems to have made sure it treated it as one big journey.

I think what happened is:
Marble Arch: Journey opened
Tower Hill: Journey closed
Tower Gateway: Journey re-opened (OSI)
Canary Wharf DLR: Journey closed
Canary Wharf LUL (in): Jounrey re-opened (OSI)
Canary Wharf LUL (out): Journey closed
Heron Quays DLR: Journey re-opened (OSI)

You now have an open journey that started at Marble Arch a while ago
and are £4 in the red. When you get to Woolwich, the card reader
checked for any journeys that *started* in the last 2-ish hours,
didn't find any, and applied the £4 unstarted journey charge.

I don't think this is fair, but it's how the software works.

U

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

In every likelihood what has happened is that your original journey
from Marble Arch 'timed-out'. The current basic assumption is that
overall journeys should take no longer that two-and-a-half hours
(originally two hours), however this is to change in September as a
more complex system of variable maximum journey times is implemented -
and this system is currently being trialled at a number of stations
including Canary Wharf DLR and LU stations.

This might have meant that 80 minutes was the allowed time for a
Marble Arch to Canary Wharf journey, as per this information that
Peter Smyth obtained from TfL back in May:
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...4747db850d431f

According to this weeks Traffic Circular, the variable journey times are
now in operation for all journeys.

***
Station staff are advised that to facilitate the introduction of OXNR
programme later in the
year, with effect from 5 July 2009, all PAYG journeys ending at LU
stations, will have a variable
maximum journey time, depending on the zones the customer has travelled
through.
***

Peter Smyth

Sadly the software doesn't work like that - it only cares about
closing and/or extending the current journey. Your trip into Canary
Wharf LUL seems to have made sure it treated it as one big journey.

I think what happened is:
Marble Arch: Journey opened
Tower Hill: Journey closed
Tower Gateway: Journey re-opened (OSI)
Canary Wharf DLR: Journey closed
Canary Wharf LUL (in): Jounrey re-opened (OSI)
Canary Wharf LUL (out): Journey closed
Heron Quays DLR: Journey re-opened (OSI)

You now have an open journey that started at Marble Arch a while ago
and are £4 in the red. When you get to Woolwich, the card reader
checked for any journeys that *started* in the last 2-ish hours,
didn't find any, and applied the £4 unstarted journey charge.

I don't think this is fair, but it's how the software works.

Thanks for that you have explained what has most likely happened very
clearly, but surely the system should be asking:

1. Why would someone travelling from Marble Arch to Woolwich Arsenal go
via Canary Wharf? They should change at Shadwell/Limehouse/Westferry or
Poplar. Even if they did go down the Lewisham branch the furthest they'd
go is West India Quay.

2. Even if (1) doesn't apply then they wouldn't touch their card on the
reader at Canary Wharf, nor would they walk to Heron Quays.

On 9 July, 22:26, Commuter wrote:
1. Why would someone travelling from Marble Arch to Woolwich Arsenal go
via Canary Wharf? They should change at Shadwell/Limehouse/Westferry or
Poplar. Even if they did go down the Lewisham branch the furthest they'd
go is West India Quay.

2. Even if (1) doesn't apply then they wouldn't touch their card on the
reader at Canary Wharf, nor would they walk to Heron Quays.


The thing to remember is that the system is simply not trying to guess
your intentions, or what sensible routes are. It's based on each
individual Oyster reader applying very simple rules at each touch in
or out. These include:

1. Anyone touching out at Canary Wharf DLR and then in at Canary Wharf
LUL is considered to be continuing their journey.
2. Anyone touching out at Canary Wharf LUL and then in at Heron Quays
is considered to be continuing their journey.

And the kicker:
3. When someone touches out, the last journey is examined. If it
started more than X hours ago (where X is dependent on the starting
point), it is ignored, and the user is charged a £4 unstarted journey
fee.

Rules 1 and 2 mean the data on your card for your "last journey" says
you began it at Marble Arch some time ago, which is why you end up
with a £4 fee when rule 3 is applied at Woolwich Arsenal.

The nub of this is the system decided *at Heron Quays* that you were
making one long journey. In an ideal world, the Oyster Reader at
Woolwich Arsenal could have reversed this decision by - for example -
rewriting the last journey to end at Canary Wharf, and then appending
a separate Heron Quays - Woolwich Arsenal journey. But the system
never rewrites things - the decision of the Heron Quays Oyster reader
was final.

(NB this is all from observation, there may be exceptions, etc etc)

U

On Jul 9, 11:00*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 9 July, 22:26, Commuter wrote:

1. Why would someone travelling from Marble Arch to Woolwich Arsenal go
via Canary Wharf? They should change at Shadwell/Limehouse/Westferry or
Poplar. Even if they did go down the Lewisham branch the furthest they'd
go is West India Quay.

2. Even if (1) doesn't apply then they wouldn't touch their card on the
reader at Canary Wharf, nor would they walk to Heron Quays.

The thing to remember is that the system is simply not trying to guess
your intentions, or what sensible routes are. It's based on each
individual Oyster reader applying very simple rules at each touch in
or out. These include:

1. Anyone touching out at Canary Wharf DLR and then in at Canary Wharf
LUL is considered to be continuing their journey.
2. Anyone touching out at Canary Wharf LUL and then in at Heron Quays
is considered to be continuing their journey.

And the kicker:
3. When someone touches out, the last journey is examined. If it
started more than X hours ago (where X is dependent on the starting
point), it is ignored, and the user is charged a £4 unstarted journey
fee.

Rules 1 and 2 mean the data on your card for your "last journey" says
you began it at Marble Arch some time ago, which is why you end up
with a £4 fee when rule 3 is applied at Woolwich Arsenal.

The nub of this is the system decided *at Heron Quays* that you were
making one long journey. In an ideal world, the Oyster Reader at
Woolwich Arsenal could have reversed this decision by - for example -
rewriting the last journey to end at Canary Wharf, and then appending
a separate Heron Quays - Woolwich Arsenal journey. But the system
never rewrites things - the decision of the Heron Quays Oyster reader
was final.

(NB this is all from observation, there may be exceptions, etc etc)

Would there be any significant fraud implications if the 2 hours
instead kicked in from *when you last touched a reader*, rather than
*when you started your journey*? I can't think of any - the point of
the time-out is surely to stop you from going to $suburbia and back
without touching out as $empty_zone_6_statio, rather than to stop you
from going on a whistlestop tour of out-of-station interchanges...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org