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#1
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Overground
"Graham Harrison" wrote in message ... "Basil Jet" wrote in message ... Is there a reason why this is not just billed as part of the Underground, especially since it will soon have some deep tube bits? If the Underground can include the Chesham branch, why not the North London Line? Do staff at Gospel Oak station get paid less than staff at Chesham, in which case keeping the Overground separate from the Underground is a divide-and-conquer wheeze against the rail workers? What is now called the "Overground" is actually part of "British Rail". The government put those lines out to tender and "Overground" won it. Therefore, it's not part of Tfl as such - for instance it works under National Rail rules/signalling and passenger terms/conditions not LU. And to make matters more complicated although (as I understand it) the franchise is let to Tfl it's actually run for them by London Overground Rail Operations Ltd (LOROL) which is owned half by Hong Kong Mass Transit Railway and DB Regio. |
#2
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Overground
Graham Harrison wrote on 16
September 2009 16:59:33 ... "Graham Harrison" wrote in message ... "Basil Jet" wrote in message ... Is there a reason why this is not just billed as part of the Underground, especially since it will soon have some deep tube bits? If the Underground can include the Chesham branch, why not the North London Line? Do staff at Gospel Oak station get paid less than staff at Chesham, in which case keeping the Overground separate from the Underground is a divide-and-conquer wheeze against the rail workers? What is now called the "Overground" is actually part of "British Rail". The government put those lines out to tender and "Overground" won it. No, the government decided to delegate management responsibility for these lines to TfL. Therefore, it's not part of Tfl as such - for instance it works under National Rail rules/signalling and passenger terms/conditions not LU. It is part of TfL in the same way that the DLR is part of TfL. The signalling rules are irrelevant; there are parts of LU that operate under Network Rail signalling. Yes, the conditions of carriage are those for National Rail - so what? And to make matters more complicated although (as I understand it) the franchise is let to Tfl it's actually run for them by London Overground Rail Operations Ltd (LOROL) which is owned half by Hong Kong Mass Transit Railway and DB Regio. It's not a franchise. The London Rail Concession is an agreement between DfT and TfL under which TfL is responsible for managing services on the London Overground lines. TfL have contracted LOROL to operate the trains and stations. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
#3
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Overground
"Richard J." wrote in message om... Graham Harrison wrote on 16 September 2009 16:59:33 ... "Graham Harrison" wrote in message ... "Basil Jet" wrote in message ... Is there a reason why this is not just billed as part of the Underground, especially since it will soon have some deep tube bits? If the Underground can include the Chesham branch, why not the North London Line? Do staff at Gospel Oak station get paid less than staff at Chesham, in which case keeping the Overground separate from the Underground is a divide-and-conquer wheeze against the rail workers? What is now called the "Overground" is actually part of "British Rail". The government put those lines out to tender and "Overground" won it. No, the government decided to delegate management responsibility for these lines to TfL. Therefore, it's not part of Tfl as such - for instance it works under National Rail rules/signalling and passenger terms/conditions not LU. It is part of TfL in the same way that the DLR is part of TfL. The signalling rules are irrelevant; there are parts of LU that operate under Network Rail signalling. Yes, the conditions of carriage are those for National Rail - so what? And to make matters more complicated although (as I understand it) the franchise is let to Tfl it's actually run for them by London Overground Rail Operations Ltd (LOROL) which is owned half by Hong Kong Mass Transit Railway and DB Regio. It's not a franchise. The London Rail Concession is an agreement between DfT and TfL under which TfL is responsible for managing services on the London Overground lines. TfL have contracted LOROL to operate the trains and stations. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) OK, let see if I've got this right The Dft and Tfl have an agreement that allows Tfl to operate what is known as the "Overground". Tfl have then let a contract to LOROL to actually run the services. I'm intrigued - what's the difference between a franchise and the Dft/Tfl agreement? As for the issue of Network Rail conditions of carriage it makes a difference (to me - ymmv). |
#4
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Overground
On Sep 16, 6:39*pm, "Graham Harrison" wrote: "Richard J." wrote: Graham Harrison wrote on 16 September 2009 16:59:33: "Graham Harrison" wrote: "Basil Jet" wrote: Is there a reason why this is not just billed as part of the Underground, especially since it will soon have some deep tube bits? If the Underground can include the Chesham branch, why not the North London Line? Do staff at Gospel Oak station get paid less than staff at Chesham, in which case keeping the Overground separate from the Underground is a divide-and-conquer wheeze against the rail workers? What is now called the "Overground" is actually part of "British Rail". The government put those lines out to tender and "Overground" won it. No, the government decided to delegate management responsibility for these lines to TfL. Correct. Therefore, it's not part of Tfl as such - for instance it works under National Rail rules/signalling and passenger terms/conditions not LU. It is part of TfL in the same way that the DLR is part of TfL. *The signalling rules are irrelevant; there are parts of LU that operate under Network Rail signalling. *Yes, the conditions of carriage are those for National Rail - so what? The easiest thing to say is that it's both part of TfL and of 'National Rail' (the latter in itself being a somewhat amorphous concept). And to make matters more complicated although (as I understand it) the franchise is let to Tfl it's actually run for them by London Overground Rail Operations Ltd (LOROL) which is owned half by Hong Kong Mass Transit Railway and DB Regio. It's not a franchise. *The London Rail Concession is an agreement between DfT and TfL under which TfL is responsible for managing services on the London Overground lines. *TfL have contracted LOROL to operate the trains and stations. OK, let see if I've got this right The Dft and Tfl have an agreement that allows Tfl to operate what is known as the "Overground". * Tfl have then let a contract to LOROL to actually run the services. * I'm intrigued - what's the difference between a franchise and the Dft/Tfl agreement? Lots and lots. TfL take the revenue risk, for a start. And TfL specify the level of service - not sure if there's a concordat with the DfT on the bare minimum, but given the demand that's almost irrelevant. (I suppose there must be some sort of understanding, as the DC line is part of LO and covers territory outside of Greater London.) Both London Overground and Merseyrail (the electric lines) are "concessions" as opposed to franchises, and the DfT has delegated responsibility away in both cases - for LO, to TfL, and for Merseyrail, to Merseytravel (the PTA - well actually it's an ITA now - Intergrated Transport Authority). Merseyrail is however a somewhat different type of arrangement - for example, the operator (a Serco- NedRailways joint venture) takes the revenue risk. As for the issue of Network Rail conditions of carriage it makes a difference (to me - ymmv). *Network* Rail conditions of carriage - what are they? |
#6
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Overground
On 18 Sep, 13:48, wrote:
In article , (Mizter T) wrote: Both London Overground and Merseyrail (the electric lines) are "concessions" as opposed to franchises, and the DfT has delegated responsibility away in both cases - for LO, to TfL, and for Merseyrail, to Merseytravel (the PTA - well actually it's an ITA now - Intergrated Transport Authority). Merseyrail is however a somewhat different type of arrangement - for example, the operator (a Serco- NedRailways joint venture) takes the revenue risk. Don't Merseyrail also maintain the tack, unlike London Overground where Notwork Rail still do it? It's Integrated, not Intergrated, BTW. If there isn't such a word, there should be. Then LU lines could be integrated with each other and intergrated with Overground. |
#7
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Overground
On Fri, 18 Sep 2009, MIG wrote:
On 18 Sep, 13:48, wrote: In article , (Mizter T) wrote: Both London Overground and Merseyrail (the electric lines) are "concessions" as opposed to franchises, and the DfT has delegated responsibility away in both cases - for LO, to TfL, and for Merseyrail, to Merseytravel (the PTA - well actually it's an ITA now - Intergrated Transport Authority). Merseyrail is however a somewhat different type of arrangement - for example, the operator (a Serco- NedRailways joint venture) takes the revenue risk. Don't Merseyrail also maintain the tack, unlike London Overground where Notwork Rail still do it? It's Integrated, not Intergrated, BTW. If there isn't such a word, there should be. Then LU lines could be integrated with each other and intergrated with Overground. When the ELL was removed from the Underground, was it disinter-grated? tom -- The literature is filled with bizarre occurrances for which we have no explanation |
#8
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Overground
wrote in message ... In article Don't Merseyrail also maintain the tack, There have been a number of proposals for Merseyrail to maintain their own track, because it can be segregated from the wider network (unlike the 'Overground') but so far nothing has changed, as NR fundamentally disagree. Paul |
#9
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Overground
Paul Scott wrote:
wrote in message ... In article Don't Merseyrail also maintain the tack, There have been a number of proposals for Merseyrail to maintain their own track, because it can be segregated from the wider network (unlike the 'Overground') but so far nothing has changed, as NR fundamentally disagree. Paul Doesn't Nederlandse Spoorwegen run Merseyrail? |
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