Weren't there supposed to be some diesel electric hybrids running on londons
streets by now? Have they arrived yet - I've not seen them - or has the idea
been quietly binned?

B2003

On Nov 9, 11:54*am, wrote:
Weren't there supposed to be some diesel electric hybrids running on londons
streets by now? Have they arrived yet *- I've not seen them - or has the idea
been quietly binned?

There are a handful running on the 141 - made very obvious by the
'Another red bus going green for London' branding. It's a little
alarming being on one that's stopped in traffic - the engine shudders
to a halt, as if it's stalled, then the bus glides off silently.

There's one pictured at http://www.londonbusroutes.net/photos/141.htm

wrote:
Weren't there supposed to be some diesel electric hybrids running on londons
streets by now? Have they arrived yet - I've not seen them - or has the idea
been quietly binned?

According to the TfL site[1], six buses on the 360 (Elephant & Castle -
Kensington) are currently hybrids, with londonbusroutes.net reporting
that the new contract for the route (from 23rd January) will see the
entire service on that route operated by hybrid buses. And from 2012
*all* new buses entering service will by hybrids.

Also on the TfL site[2], it's reported that the RV1 (Covent Garden -
Tower Gateway) is to get five Hydrogen fuel cell buses in 2010.

Cheers,

Barry

[1] http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/2019.aspx
[2]
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/environment/8444.aspx

martin wrote

On Nov 9, 11:54*am, wrote:
Weren't there supposed to be some diesel electric hybrids running on
londons streets by now? Have they arrived yet *- I've not seen them -
or has the idea been quietly binned?

There are a handful running on the 141 - made very obvious by the
[...]

There are one or two running on the 371 (Kingston-Richmond) and I have
traveled on one.

--
Mike D

Barry Salter wrote:
wrote:
Weren't there supposed to be some diesel electric hybrids running on
londons
streets by now? Have they arrived yet - I've not seen them - or has
the idea
been quietly binned?



As others have mentioned, they're in service, although not in large
numbers - I've been on a 141 myself and regularly see them on the E8 and
371 although I've not tried those yet.


Also on the TfL site[2], it's reported that the RV1 (Covent Garden -
Tower Gateway) is to get five Hydrogen fuel cell buses in 2010.


The very useful project/finance update documents TfL publish on their
site say that the H2 bus project has been subject to cost escalations
because the H2 is all imported and the drive trains have had trouble -
they were going to have 5 fuel cell and 5 internal combustion H2
engines, but the latter aren't now happening so the total will be 8 fuel
cell plus two diesel backups. IIRC the H2 is made from natural gas
anyway, which implies the carbon is being stuck somewhere.

[these are the same documents that imply the New Bus For London is a
£50m+ project, as it's in the list of projects to be approved at the
highest level, despite only costing £3.3m for the initial stages]

Tom

On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 12:14:06 +0000, Barry Salter
wrote:

Also on the TfL site[2], it's reported that the RV1 (Covent Garden -
Tower Gateway) is to get five Hydrogen fuel cell buses in 2010.

I'm assuming the PVR is quite a bit bigger than that - and while I'm
sure the Citaros are perfectly structurally sound, being of German
build quality, they are in a right state inside and out and in dire
need of a tarting-up.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Most of London's hybrid buses can be recognised by the green leaf motif over
their traditional red livery, usually with a lack of the operator's
corporate colour details.

Optare (OPE) Versa, Alexander Dennis (ADL) Enviro400 double deck and
Wrightbus Gemini 2 Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV) are all in advanced stages
of development and evaluation.

Martin G. Layton. ..

"Tom Barry" wrote in message
...
Barry Salter wrote:
wrote:
Weren't there supposed to be some diesel electric hybrids running on
londons
streets by now? Have they arrived yet - I've not seen them - or has the
idea
been quietly binned?



As others have mentioned, they're in service, although not in large
numbers - I've been on a 141 myself and regularly see them on the E8 and
371 although I've not tried those yet.


Also on the TfL site[2], it's reported that the RV1 (Covent Garden -
Tower Gateway) is to get five Hydrogen fuel cell buses in 2010.


The very useful project/finance update documents TfL publish on their site
say that the H2 bus project has been subject to cost escalations because
the H2 is all imported and the drive trains have had trouble - they were
going to have 5 fuel cell and 5 internal combustion H2 engines, but the
latter aren't now happening so the total will be 8 fuel cell plus two
diesel backups. IIRC the H2 is made from natural gas anyway, which
implies the carbon is being stuck somewhere.

[these are the same documents that imply the New Bus For London is a £50m+
project, as it's in the list of projects to be approved at the highest
level, despite only costing £3.3m for the initial stages]

Tom

AIUI, the long term plan is for Hydrogen to be a form of energy storage for
surplus "renewable" power generated - it's claimed that using surplus (ie
when the winds blow, the sun shines and the big waves roll all at the same
time) to produce hydrogen is the cheapest storage medium - more
cost-effective than batteries or pumped storage hydro-electric schemes. The
claims are made by academics working in the "sustainability" area. Thus, the
use of methane (ie natural gas) to make hydrogen out of its reaction with
superheated steam with CO2 as a byproduct can only be a temporary source
during the extended proof-of-concept of this fuel cell business. Meanwhile,
the good old simple gas turbine is a proven technology and could work on a
range of gaseous and liquid fuels, so why the emphasis on fuel cells leaves
me a little confused.

DW downunder

DW downunder noname wrote

Also on the TfL site[2], it's reported that the RV1 (Covent Garden
-
Tower Gateway) is to get five Hydrogen fuel cell buses in 2010.


The very useful project/finance update documents TfL publish on
their site
say that the H2 bus project has been subject to cost escalations
because
the H2 is all imported and the drive trains have had trouble - they
were
going to have 5 fuel cell and 5 internal combustion H2 engines, but
the
latter aren't now happening so the total will be 8 fuel cell plus
two
diesel backups. IIRC the H2 is made from natural gas anyway, which

implies the carbon is being stuck somewhere.

AIUI, the long term plan is for Hydrogen to be a form of energy
storage for
surplus "renewable" power generated - it's claimed that using surplus
(ie
when the winds blow, the sun shines and the big waves roll all at the
same
time) to produce hydrogen is the cheapest storage medium - more
cost-effective than batteries or pumped storage hydro-electric
schemes. The
claims are made by academics working in the "sustainability" area.
Thus, the
use of methane (ie natural gas) to make hydrogen out of its reaction
with
superheated steam with CO2 as a byproduct can only be a temporary
source
during the extended proof-of-concept of this fuel cell business.
Meanwhile,
the good old simple gas turbine is a proven technology and could work
on a
range of gaseous and liquid fuels, so why the emphasis on fuel cells
leaves
me a little confused.

The problem is that several different methods and combinations are
possible but not yet economically proven. If a economic source of
liquid fuel (say butanol) becomes available - either synthetic fuel
from nuclear or wind electricty or biological without impacting food
supplies - then hydrogen's handling disadvantages would cause it to
disappear. However until there is an alternative if the energy is from
hydrogen then fuel cells are there and ready to go. Mixing and trying
to match a trial of both "road vehicles fueled with hydrogen" and
another attempt at "gas turbine road vehicles" is not widely regarded
as clever and nor would internal combustion using hydrogen be either.

--
Mike D

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01ca656b$31515400$LocalHost@default...
DW downunder noname wrote

Also on the TfL site[2], it's reported that the RV1 (Covent Garden
-
Tower Gateway) is to get five Hydrogen fuel cell buses in 2010.


The very useful project/finance update documents TfL publish on
their site
say that the H2 bus project has been subject to cost escalations
because
the H2 is all imported and the drive trains have had trouble - they
were
going to have 5 fuel cell and 5 internal combustion H2 engines, but
the
latter aren't now happening so the total will be 8 fuel cell plus
two
diesel backups. IIRC the H2 is made from natural gas anyway, which

implies the carbon is being stuck somewhere.

AIUI, the long term plan is for Hydrogen to be a form of energy
storage for
surplus "renewable" power generated - it's claimed that using surplus
(ie
when the winds blow, the sun shines and the big waves roll all at the
same
time) to produce hydrogen is the cheapest storage medium - more
cost-effective than batteries or pumped storage hydro-electric
schemes. The
claims are made by academics working in the "sustainability" area.
Thus, the
use of methane (ie natural gas) to make hydrogen out of its reaction
with
superheated steam with CO2 as a byproduct can only be a temporary
source
during the extended proof-of-concept of this fuel cell business.
Meanwhile,
the good old simple gas turbine is a proven technology and could work
on a
range of gaseous and liquid fuels, so why the emphasis on fuel cells
leaves
me a little confused.

The problem is that several different methods and combinations are
possible but not yet economically proven. If a economic source of
liquid fuel (say butanol) becomes available - either synthetic fuel
from nuclear or wind electricty or biological without impacting food
supplies - then hydrogen's handling disadvantages would cause it to
disappear. However until there is an alternative if the energy is from
hydrogen then fuel cells are there and ready to go. Mixing and trying
to match a trial of both "road vehicles fueled with hydrogen" and
another attempt at "gas turbine road vehicles" is not widely regarded
as clever and nor would internal combustion using hydrogen be either.

--
Mike D



GT only as an internal combustion engine, agreed. GT's very inefficient at
less than about 85% full power.

But a battery-electric vehicle with GT-genset charger would be very future
proofed.

DW downunder