In message , at 06:14:17 on
Fri, 2 Mar 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
ATM cards don't necessarily have a (visible?) number (apart from the
account name or number) if they are neither credit nor debit cards.

My ATM card says on the back in small print "This is not a credit card".

The BIN is 6319-2, which is missing from the lists at bin-iin.com

But my Debit Card doesn't say that it's not a credit card (nor does an
Amex Charge Card, I expect).
--
Roland Perry

My ATM card says on the back in small print "This is not a credit card".

The BIN is 6319-2, which is missing from the lists at bin-iin.com

The general numbering system was set up long ago. I happen to have a
copy here of ANSI X4.13-1983 which says that numbers starting with 3
are for travel and entertainment, 4 and 5 are for banking
institutions, 6 is retail merchandising. Discover cards have 6XXX
numbers, presumably since they were originally spun out of Sears.

In all cases, the lasr number is a check digit, computed using a
secret formula known only to people who know how to type "Luhn"
into Google.

For cards starting with 3, the 3XXX identifies the issuer. All 37XX
numbers are AmEx, but they subdivide that by card type and currency.
For Visa cards, 4XXXX XX identifies the issuer. Master Card issuer
numbers are variable length, 51X, 52XX, 53XXX, or 5NXXXX where N
is not 1, 2, or 3. Most banks use multiple issuer numbers, both
because they issue different kinds of cards and because the big ones
issue more cards than fit in one range.

Dunno why yours would have a 6 number other than that buying a range
of numbers from whoever runs 6xxx was cheaper than from Master card or
Visa. My HSBC UK debit card used to have a 6 number (which worked in
card terminals in the US, I tried it) but they have since switched to
Visa numbers, likely so that they're usable at places in the US that
only do signature transactions.

But to return to the original point of this exercise, to get free
train travel, buy a $20 Visa gift card for cash at the supermarket,
and use it on the train. (Do they even have gift cards in the UK? If
so, make it a 20 quid gift card.)

Until you've bought $20 worth of tickets, it works normally, and the
ticket price is deducted from your balance when the transaction
clears. After that, the bank rejects the transaction, but if the
guard's ticket machine doesn't validate in real time, by the time that
happens you're long gone, and since the card is a bearer instrument,
they have no way to know who to go after. Repeat indefinitely until
the expiration date on the card.

Knowing the BIN ranges of debit cards and gift cards doesn't help
here, since many of them are entirely valid and the train company
will get paid.

R's,
John
--
Regards,
John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

Roland Perry wrote:

I've just received a replacement Barclaycard 'Platinum' and it's made
from plain white plastic. What's that all about? Maybe they are sulking
because it's a Mastercard not VISA?

(Note to USA subscribers: for a generation, Barclaycard and VISA were
synonymous in the UK.)

Somebody didn't let someone win at golf?

In message , at 14:39:53 on Fri, 2 Mar
2012, John Levine remarked:
In all cases, the lasr number is a check digit, computed using a
secret formula known only to people who know how to type "Luhn"
into Google.

When I was working in mail order we wanted to be able to checksum card
numbers handwritten on orders, or taken over the phone. We knew there
was a checksum, but the companies refused to tell us (this was decades
before Google, naturally). So we pooled our company AMEX cards on the
table, which of course had quite a lot of digits in common, and had
cracked it in about five minutes. Then, as we suspected, the same
algorithm worked for the rest.

But to return to the original point of this exercise, to get free
train travel, buy a $20 Visa gift card for cash at the supermarket,
and use it on the train. (Do they even have gift cards in the UK? If
so, make it a 20 quid gift card.)

There are lots of gift cards, but to be honest I've never thought they
might be numbered like credit cards. They are branded to particular
stores or chains.

And then there were pre-pay charge cards about five or six years ago,
which think got scrapped because they were too easy for money launderers
to move money internationally with. Their charges were a bit steep as
well.

Until you've bought $20 worth of tickets, it works normally, and the
ticket price is deducted from your balance when the transaction
clears. After that, the bank rejects the transaction, but if the
guard's ticket machine doesn't validate in real time, by the time that
happens you're long gone, and since the card is a bearer instrument,
they have no way to know who to go after. Repeat indefinitely until
the expiration date on the card.

Knowing the BIN ranges of debit cards and gift cards doesn't help
here, since many of them are entirely valid and the train company
will get paid.

The train companies already don't accept Solo and Electron[1], because
they (the train companies) don't have online verification, so they'd
just add those sorts of cards to that list.

[1] Debit cards for accounts with no overdraft facilities and/or
impoverished customers, like students, and under-18's.
--
Roland Perry

John Levine wrote:

But to return to the original point of this exercise, to get free
train travel, buy a $20 Visa gift card for cash at the supermarket,
and use it on the train. (Do they even have gift cards in the UK? If
so, make it a 20 quid gift card.)

Until you've bought $20 worth of tickets, it works normally, and the
ticket price is deducted from your balance when the transaction
clears. After that, the bank rejects the transaction, but if the
guard's ticket machine doesn't validate in real time, by the time that
happens you're long gone, and since the card is a bearer instrument,
they have no way to know who to go after. Repeat indefinitely until
the expiration date on the card.

Knowing the BIN ranges of debit cards and gift cards doesn't help
here, since many of them are entirely valid and the train company
will get paid.

Stephen raised the spectre of gift cards to dispute the point I made
that card types were known by number ranges, so you just need the list
of known closed accounts when using a hand-held point of sale device
carried by the conductor, given that authorization won't be convenient
or possible when using these devices. Even you agree that yes, these
are issued in known number ranges. If the transaction with a gift card
cannot be authorized in certain circumstances, then don't accept it
in those circumstances. Similarly, they're not going to accept cards
issued by merchants to give credit to their own customers for purchases
at their own store, like gasoline credit cards. The accounts are issued
in different ranges.

This Web page discusses payment methods that also apply to paying
on train: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...t_methods.html

Credit/Debit/Charge Cards

All National Rail train companies accept the major cards
such as Visa, Visa Delta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex.
Some train companies also accept Diners Club International,
Solo and Electron.

Nothing on this page says that gift cards are accepted. Gosh. They
must know the card number ranges!

So many followups later, Stephen's point was a non-issue, but I won't
likely live long enough till he withdraws it.

Roland Perry wrote:

There are lots of gift cards, but to be honest I've never thought they
might be numbered like credit cards. They are branded to particular
stores or chains.

In the US, gift cards have evolved over the past few years. They used to be
issued by the store in question and may or may not have had a proprietary
account number embossed/recorded.

A few years ago, the major card issuers became aware of the market and decided
they wanted a peice of the float/lost card funds and started issuing gift cards
on behalf of the retailers. Now days, they are essentially prepaid debit cards.
Depending on the card, they can be restricted to a particular store, chain of
stores, or used anywhere a credit card is accepted.

(Note to USA subscribers: for a generation, Barclaycard and VISA were
synonymous in the UK.)

I recall some of my early trips to the UK, attempting use use a Mastercard,
getting a puzzled look from the clerk and having to say "Just process it like a
Eurocard".

On 02-Mar-12 08:39, John Levine wrote:
Dunno why yours would have a 6 number other than that buying a range
of numbers from whoever runs 6xxx was cheaper than from Master card or
Visa.

One of the reasons for the 3/4/5/6 distinction is that, before the
advent of modern card processors, a merchant would have to decode the
card number to figure out which network to call for authorization and
submit the charge to. They could only process card types they knew and
from networks they had an existing relationship with. 4/5 cards were
easy to deal with because only the first number needed to be examined,
which is why Visa and Mastercard are so widely accepted. 3 cards are
only slightly more difficult. 6 cards, though, were generally only
accepted at the particular merchant that issued them. An ATM machine
might have only understood the particular 6 ranges used by a handful of
ATM networks.

My HSBC UK debit card used to have a 6 number (which worked in
card terminals in the US, I tried it)

Today, things are totally different. Merchants send all transactions to
the same card processor, regardless of card number, and it's up to the
processor to route it to the right network and issuing bank. It's then
up to the issuing bank to decide whether to accept a charge from the
merchant in question. Sears card, for instance, started accepting
charges from any merchant, rather than just Sears stores, and rebranded
themselves Discover. Ditto for many other 6 issuers. However, many 6
issuers still only accept charges from particular merchants for various
commercial reasons.

but they have since switched to
Visa numbers, likely so that they're usable at places in the US that
only do signature transactions.

6 numbers work just fine in the US for signature transactions; Discover
has worked that way for a long time.

Until you've bought $20 worth of tickets, it works normally, and the
ticket price is deducted from your balance when the transaction
clears. After that, the bank rejects the transaction, but if the
guard's ticket machine doesn't validate in real time, by the time that
happens you're long gone, and since the card is a bearer instrument,
they have no way to know who to go after. Repeat indefinitely until
the expiration date on the card.

Knowing the BIN ranges of debit cards and gift cards doesn't help
here, since many of them are entirely valid and the train company
will get paid.

Exactly my point.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Credit/Debit/Charge Cards

All National Rail train companies accept the major cards
such as Visa, Visa Delta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex.
Some train companies also accept Diners Club International,
Solo and Electron.

Nothing on this page says that gift cards are accepted. Gosh. They
must know the card number ranges!

The gift cards at my supermarket are AmEx and Visa branded. More
likely there aren't enough prepaid cards in the UK for National
Rail to have noticed.

Maybe I'll send one to Roland and he can see if he can buy a train
ticket with it.

R's,
John

--
Regards,
John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 02-Mar-12 08:39, John Levine wrote:

Knowing the BIN ranges of debit cards and gift cards doesn't help
here, since many of them are entirely valid and the train company
will get paid.

Exactly my point.

John Levine did not support your point, dude. If a merchant has a
reason to have a policy not to accept the gift cards because
authorizations cannot be obtained during a very brief transaction,
he can avoid these cards due to known number ranges.

Even John Levine agreed that the number ranges were known. You
have yet to own up to it. It's a non-issue.