On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 08:04:22 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

But there is a bleedin obvious solution, which TfL point-blank refuses
to consider: sell extension tickets to holders of paper seasons at
less than the penalty fare rate. What's so difficult about that?

I'll give you that one. But I think all that shows is that TfL didn't
think of people with R1256 seasons wanting to extend to bits of the
Met.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 16:41:22 -0800 (PST), John B wrote:

...which solely leaves people with season Travelcards from outside the
zones. Now, these are z123456,

Not all of them - you can get them to z6, z56, etc.

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 08:06:27 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

The opposite is true. When you are extending beyond the area covered,
you can no longer get an extension without getting off to touch out
or, if you don't use it for any part of the journey, you get charged
an enormously-hiked cash fare.

If you use PAYG rather than a paper ODTC, I guess you mean. (You
*can* buy a BOUNDARY ZONE N ticket on an Oyster R1256 Travelcard).
But PAYG brings so many other benefits that I don't think that's a
massive loss.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 13 Dec, 16:09, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 08:06:27 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
The opposite is true. *When you are extending beyond the area covered,
you can no longer get an extension without getting off to touch out
or, if you don't use it for any part of the journey, you get charged
an enormously-hiked cash fare.

If you use PAYG rather than a paper ODTC, I guess you mean. *(You
*can* buy a BOUNDARY ZONE N ticket on an Oyster R1256 Travelcard).
But PAYG brings so many other benefits that I don't think that's a
massive loss.

It's a worse problem if you are extending into the area covered by the
smartcard, but a cash extension within that area is sold at a penalty
fare rate to coerce people to use the smartcard within the area.

If that isn't going to happen, then we'll have a situation where eg
Kings Langley to Harrow & Wealdstone is cheaper than Watford Junction
to Harrow & Wealdstone.

On 13 Dec, 16:07, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 08:04:22 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
But there is a bleedin obvious solution, which TfL point-blank refuses
to consider: sell extension tickets to holders of paper seasons at
less than the penalty fare rate. *What's so difficult about that?

I'll give you that one. *But I think all that shows is that TfL didn't
think of people with R1256 seasons wanting to extend to bits of the
Met.

I meant that point to cover extending any paper travelcard season on
LU, eg zone 1 - 2 bought in south London, outboundary to zone 5 - 6
only (as ASDF just mentioned).

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 08:28:21 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

I meant that point to cover extending any paper travelcard season on
LU, eg zone 1 - 2 bought in south London, outboundary to zone 5 - 6
only (as ASDF just mentioned).

But why would you have a paper travelcard season that *wasn't* an
outboundary one? And most outboundary TCs are to R1256. (I think you
can also get one to R2356 - but are there any others?)

Though given the tiny number of people likely to use it and the
minimal revenue loss, it would probably be easier to change those to
cover 1-9 so they are back as all-zones Travecards.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 13 Dec, 16:52, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 08:28:21 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
I meant that point to cover extending any paper travelcard season on
LU, eg zone 1 - 2 bought in south London, outboundary to zone 5 - 6
only (as ASDF just mentioned).

But why would you have a paper travelcard season that *wasn't* an
outboundary one? *And most outboundary TCs are to R1256. *(I think you
can also get one to R2356 - but are there any others?)

Though given the tiny number of people likely to use it and the
minimal revenue loss, it would probably be easier to change those to
cover 1-9 so they are back as all-zones Travecards.

There's still going to be a lot of places where can't conveniently get
their travelcard loaded on Oyster. If you haven't got time to detour
to the shop, or the machine's broken or whatever on the day you need
to renew, you could be stuck with a paper one for a long time.

It's happened to me. I always got zone 1 - 2 travelcard on Oyster if
I could, but relied on either a long detour or a single card-only
machine on days when I needed to renew. If it was raining the night
before and/or the machine wasn't working (as frequently it didn't) I
would then be in a location where the only option (other than being
half an hour late for work) was the NR ticket office. Having renewed,
one is then stuck with it for the relevant period.

My local situation has improved in the last few months, but the
extension of Oyster will create loads of similar situations around NR
stations in the sticks.

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 09:09:48 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

My local situation has improved in the last few months, but the
extension of Oyster will create loads of similar situations around NR
stations in the sticks.

So the solution is:-

1. All NR stations in the Zones need the equipment to issue Oyster.

2. From outside the Zones, a "trade in" ticket could be issued to be
traded in for an Oyster-loaded Travelcard at an inside-the-zones
ticket office. This could work similarly to the situation that used
to exist with non-encoded SPORTIS outboundary Day Travelcards which
had to be traded in before they were usable on LUL.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 13 Dec, 17:15, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 09:09:48 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
My local situation has improved in the last few months, but the
extension of Oyster will create loads of similar situations around NR
stations in the sticks.

So the solution is:-

1. All NR stations in the Zones need the equipment to issue Oyster.

2. From outside the Zones, a "trade in" ticket could be issued to be
traded in for an Oyster-loaded Travelcard at an inside-the-zones
ticket office. *This could work similarly to the situation that used
to exist with non-encoded SPORTIS outboundary Day Travelcards which
had to be traded in before they were usable on LUL.

Something helpful always COULD be done but, as I commented a long way
back, that has not been the approach to the introduction of Oyster so
far, so I can't see why it will change.

If the attitude did change with the introduction on NR, it would be an
implicit admission that the coercive "tough luck" attitude was
inappropriate on LU in the first place.

On Dec 13, 5:15*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 09:09:48 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
My local situation has improved in the last few months, but the
extension of Oyster will create loads of similar situations around NR
stations in the sticks.

So the solution is:-

1. All NR stations in the Zones need the equipment to issue Oyster.

Which we know will happen at the same time as Oyster extension.
PROBLEM SOLVED.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org