"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

... That SWT is outside of this agreement at the
present time is a big negative given the sheer size of their network
south of the Thames. It is perhaps related to their ongoing dispute with
the DfT about their franchise terms - does anyone know what is happening
on that? Wasn't it going to the industry recognized adjudication
process?

There was something in the Times financial pages last week suggesting that
they are still confident in winning their case.

Isn't the likeliest reason that SWT are still in dispute about PAYG 'sales'
their franchise requirement to fit ITSO reader/validators to all their TVMs?

Inside the zones as well as out, because according to the DfT Oyster would
be made compatible in time?

I admit I have no inside knowledge, that's based mainly on what I've read
here...

Paul S

Paul Corfield wrote:

Just on that machines point, some machines at Euston, which are pretty
standard NR machines (can't remember the names of different machine
types) already have Oyster functionality, presumably because of LO.

Therefore, for all TOCs who use that kind of machine at least, the
work is already done without further redesign, presumably.

Yes but I don't know if those machines can set OEPs.

One thing I haven't see clearly is whether or not OEPs will be required on
London Overground (and for that matter parts of NR that currently accept
PAYG) - will the TfL branding override the NR status or does the
conscientous traveller need to carry a manual to a) do the right thing and
b) challenge any ticket inspector who disputes this?

Paul Corfield wrote:

OEPs is a separate issue and I think it's clear that this concept is
unpopular with people even though there is an evasion risk associated
with travelling beyond zonal season availability into PAYG territory.
What is not clear is whether the modified TOC vending machines will
retail PAYG *and* also set OEPs as part of their upgraded functionality.
If that is the case then it avoids people having to seek out TfL
ticketing facilities to set OEPs before they travel out of zone -
assuming a start in TOC territory and within the validity of a
Travelcard.


Here's hoping - off the top of my head a potential nightmare set of stations
are the Zone 6 ones in the Epsom & Ewell area - Ewell East, Ewell West,
Epsom Downs and Tattenham Corner. None are in the Greater London so I doubt
there are many shops in the area selling Oyster near any of these. And even
if there are, most of these stations have residential areas in the immediate
vicinity with shops some inconvenient walking distance away with no obvious
sign for the uninitiated of where to find Oyster. Plus this is an area where
evening and Sunday opening hours are tighter than in central London so there
will be periods when people simply cannot buy an OEP locally.

Of course being outside Greater London probably means nobody will easily be
able to kick up a fuss (unless local MP Chris Grayling goes back to the
Transport portfolio) but I wouldn't be surprised if people can find outer
suburb stations in similar circumstances - Belmont immediately springs to
mind as

If you really want to see the striking differences between north and
south of the Thames in terms of fares then a look at the 2010 maps for
child and 16+ PAYG charges throws the "split" into sharp focus. On
issues like this I can see why people may end up being very ****ed off
that their local TOC did not join the party earlier. Even the new bit of
C2C land in Essex offers free child travel for 5-10 year olds - that's
an interesting decision by C2C.

I note that this isn't entirely a north-south issue though with National
Express *not* having the cheaper fares east of Stratford - nice.

On 12 Dec, 15:09, MIG wrote:
I suspect that validators in trains now would be hugely expensive,

Too right - they would have to be permantently in touch with the
central database!

On Dec 12, 1:54*pm, MIG wrote:
On 12 Dec, 13:27, John B wrote:



On Dec 11, 11:30*pm, MIG wrote:

On 11 Dec, 16:17, John B wrote:

On Dec 11, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote:

In any case, TfL could easily ensure that Oyster cards were available
for gbp10 with gbp7 credit and gbp20 with gbp17 credit from vending
machines at all airports, mainline terminals and major Tube stations -
and from behind the counter at hotels, ticket stops, etc, packaged
with a 10-language leaflet on how to top them up. That'd be pretty
straightforward for everyone.

(and very few people would bother getting a refund, which is a bonus
from Londoners' perspective.)

That would mean doing something helpful that takes into account
people's circumstances.

That is not the general approach to the introduction of Oyster so far,
so why should it suddenly change?

Yes it is. See: pioneering daily capping; giving people two years to
get used to touching in and out before imposing penalties; ensuring
that top-up machines were fitted in all stations before abolishing
paper seasons; etc.

I know that you've got an irrational phobia of Oyster, but suggesting
that it's made life more rather than less difficult for people, and
has failed to take into account people's circumstances, is simply
false - and TfL has demonstrably offset

Hell, look at the NR roll-out: it's now clear that the vast majority
of NR stations inside the zones will have Oyster top-ups enabled by
January (against the sneering from here 'oooh, you'll have to get a
permit at a Tube station because NR doesn't do Oyster', etc ad
nauseam).

"TfL could easily" have done a number of things that took into account
reality over the the last few years, but they refused.

The only things TfL could've done to make Oyster more useable would've
required the permission of the TOCs, and with DfT refusing to wield
big sticks at them TfL's hands were tied. OEPs are a massive,
ridiculous pain in the arse, as is the fact that new PAYG lines will
be on rail rather than standard Tube payscales. TfL spent years trying
to ensure that they weren't, but ultimately couldn't.

It was, and still is, entirely within TfL's control not to charge
penalty fares to punish people for not using Oyster despite Oyster not
being fully available.

If Oyster is so good, why do they fine people so heavily for not using
it, even when they haven't got the option of using it?

Unless that can be answered, all apologist claptrap is worthless.

They don't. That a simple enough answer?

Seriously: you can't be 'fined' (I'm assuming 'fined' means 'charged a
bit more for your ticket', as the literal definition is just nonsense)
for not using Oyster if you don't have the option of using it.

On the routes where you don't have the option of using Oyster - say,
Crayford to London Bridge - you can buy a CDS or CDR; on the routes
where you do have the option of using Oyster - say, London Bridge to
High Barnet - you can touch in and get the Oyster fare.

Before Oyster, you'd still have needed to buy separate paper tickets
from Crayford-LBG and LBG-High Barnet: nothing has changed. Or you
could have bought a ODTC covering the whole journey, which you still
can: nothing has changed.

Oyster has brought massive benefits to people living within the areas
where it's fully accepted. It's much less relevant to people living in
the areas where it isn't fully accepted, which is the fault of the
TOCs and the DfT and which will finally (mostly) be addressed by
January.

But it hasn't made life *any worse* for people living in the areas
where it isn't accepted. The way it's been implemented, with old-style
NR fares available on all NR routes, with low point-to-point Tube and
bus fares available to anyone with an Oyster card whether they live in
Angel, Bexley or Timbuktu, and with ODTCs still fully available to all
comers, means that it definitionally can't.

You don't seem to take into account the fact that many hundreds of
thousands of people (if not millions) live in places where Oyster is
not available but spend a lot of time in travelling to and perhaps
working in places where non-Oyster ticketing is penalised, either by
hugely hiked fares or by ridiculous inconvenience, like having to get
off to touch in or out.

But all this has been done over and over.

There are no places where Oyster is not available. There are some
places where Oyster is not valid on some or all means of transport.
The whole reason I came up with the example above was because I was
trying, and failing, to find somewhere where non-Oyster users were
subjected to a choice of hugely hiked fares or ridiculous
inconvenience.

The one I missed (and as far as I can see it *is* the only one) is
being the holder of a paper season Travelcard who wants to go outside
their zones on LU/DLR. Yes, that's a pain the way the system is
currently set up. The obvious and completely painless way round it for
people within the zones is to *get your season Travelcard on Oyster*,
which has absolutely no negative effects and solves all your problems.

....which solely leaves people with season Travelcards from outside the
zones. Now, these are z123456, so we're solely talking about the
occasional Tube trip to the wilds of Bucks and Herts. Yes, Oyster has
made life rubbish for those people on those trips. D'you want to
suggest the B/CA on that, because I'm suspecting the C column's not
going to be vast...?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Dec 12, 2:26*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
[revenue protection stuff snipped - interesting comments; I disagree
and I think that's centred on differing views of human behaviour that
probably aren't worth arguing about here!]
OEPs is a separate issue and I think it's clear that this concept is
unpopular with people even though there is an evasion risk associated
with travelling beyond zonal season availability into PAYG territory.
What is not clear is whether the modified TOC vending machines will
retail PAYG *and* also set OEPs as part of their upgraded functionality.
If that is the case then it avoids people having to seek out TfL
ticketing facilities to set OEPs before they travel out of zone -
assuming a start in TOC territory and within the validity of a
Travelcard.

Surely they must, otherwise that would be absolutely stark-raving-
bonkers? "You can get an OEP at every PAYG machine. Erm, except the
one we've just installed at your station..."

The only things TfL could've done to make Oyster more useable would've
required the permission of the TOCs, and with DfT refusing to wield
big sticks at them TfL's hands were tied. OEPs are a massive,
ridiculous pain in the arse, as is the fact that new PAYG lines will
be on rail rather than standard Tube payscales. TfL spent years trying
to ensure that they weren't, but ultimately couldn't.

You've made some interesting statements there - did the DfT really
refuse to wield a "big stick"? *Did TfL really spend years trying to
ensure a common farescale? *I have not seen anything that suggests both
statements are completely correct - I'd be interested to know if you
have your own evidence for this? *I'm not necessarily disagreeing btw,
just curious as to whether it is verifiably true rather than just your
perception of what went on.

This is my perception, based on some demonstrable facts, some hearsay
that I believe, and some conjecture.

Demonstrably, TfL spent a long time trying to persuade TOCs to take up
PAYG. Demonstrably, DfT failed to compel new London rail franchises
let once the PAYG concept was in place to accept PAYG as a condition
of their franchise.

I've heard from people who ought to know, but haven't seen anything in
writing, that TfL (in a "general consensus among top people" sense)
had wanted all London rail to come under a common, zonal farescale
based on the Tube one, and have also heard that TfL would rather not
have to do OEPs but for the need to appease the TOCs.

The rest is conjecture...

If you really want to see the striking differences between north and
south of the Thames in terms of fares then a look at the 2010 maps for
child and 16+ PAYG charges throws the "split" into sharp focus. *On
issues like this I can see why people may end up being very ****ed off
that their local TOC did not join the party earlier. Even the new bit of
C2C land in Essex offers free child travel for 5-10 year olds - that's
an interesting decision by C2C. *

Yes, it is. I'd love to know in these kinds of talks how much it comes
down to differing customer and traffic profiles affecting the
particular TOC's decision, versus how "growth & customer-centric"
versus "protection & customer-extorting" the personalities in charge
of the TOC are...

The loss of cash based CDRs within the zones for those whose railcards
do not work on Oyster is also an issue. *A quick look at the next set of
Mayor's questions will see that the usual suspects (politically) have
picked up on these issues. Whether a fix is even feasible I just don't
know but the risk to Oyster being seen as acceptable for key parts of
the travel market is definitely there. *The removal of "back up" options
for people who can't participate has perhaps been a tad precipitate -
taking on board your earlier remarks about TfL's cautious implementation
methodology.

Yes, that's true - the obvious solution would be to integrate
railcards properly with Oyster, but I suppose that goes against the
whole ITSO nonsense the DfT's been wasting its time on instead of
developing the system that already exists.

Still dear old Mr Toad (ever in tune with the times) is demanding that
Boris axes even more buses in Oxford Street. Is that so his taxi can
move more quickly?

I'm ashamed it took me as long as it did to work out the ideological
context of debendification:

1) there are bendy buses. they carry passengers. it works
2) there are ridiculous numbers of replacement buses. they bunch up
meaning some are rammed and some are empty. they don't have enough
doors so take too long to fill and empty. photogenic traffic jams of
buses are created.
3) Something must be done!
4) "25% of these buses are empty, so we'll cut the frequency by 25%"
5) London's bus capacity cut by 25%. 25% fewer opportunities for
failures over 30 to get around. BIG TORY WOOYAY!

I'm glad I'm getting out of the country before the *******s take
charge nationwide.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Dec 12, 8:37*pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote:
Just on that machines point, some machines at Euston, which are pretty
standard NR machines (can't remember the names of different machine
types) already have Oyster functionality, presumably because of LO.
Therefore, for all TOCs who use that kind of machine at least, the
work is already done without further redesign, presumably.
Yes but I don't know if those machines can set OEPs.

One thing I haven't see clearly is whether or not OEPs will be required on
London Overground (and for that matter parts of NR that currently accept
PAYG) - will the TfL branding override the NR status or does the
conscientous traveller need to carry a manual to a) do the right thing and
b) challenge any ticket inspector who disputes this?

No, they won't - absolutely, unequivocally not on LO and nor will
anyone challenge you, but I've also seen docs (sorry for vagueness)
that suggest it'll be the same for existing PAYG NR lines. However,
particularly on routes like FCC-TL where rules will be different on
West Hampstead-LBG from Elstree-West Hampstead, finding the relevant
documentation might not be a bad idea.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

In message , Tim Roll-Pickering
writes

Plus this is an area where evening and Sunday opening hours are
tighter than in central London so there will be periods when people
simply cannot buy an OEP locally.

What do people from, say, Epsom Downs do now when they want to travel
beyond their zones on a Sunday evening?
--
Paul Terry

Paul Terry wrote:

Plus this is an area where evening and Sunday opening hours are tighter
than in central London so there will be periods when people simply cannot
buy an OEP locally.

What do people from, say, Epsom Downs do now when they want to travel
beyond their zones on a Sunday evening?

Well currently Epsom Downs doesn't have Sunday services or for that matter a
ticket office (the station building is now a nursery) but the other stations
do and the point does apply to evenings. In the old days the solution was
obvious - buy a permit to travel and sort it out on the train or the
destination. Now with those machines getting rarer I guess one just boards
with the season ticket and is expected to sort that out on the train or
destination. A sudden rule that before starting they must obtain something
that they can not always obtain is going to cause no end of problems.

Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Tim Roll-Pickering
writes

Plus this is an area where evening and Sunday opening hours are
tighter than in central London so there will be periods when people
simply cannot buy an OEP locally.

What do people from, say, Epsom Downs do now when they want to travel
beyond their zones on a Sunday evening?

Walk. There is no Sunday service.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK