In message
,
Mizter T writes

No, I don't believe it would remain there - my understanding is that
an OEP is cleared immediately on touching-out anywhere (regardless of
whether it's a Tube or NR station).

Not according to TfL's staff briefing on OEPs:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...3/OEP.pdf.html

"If the customer completes their journey within the zones covered by
their season ticket, the OEP will remain on their card. If requested,
you must remove the OEP from their Oyster card to make sure they do not
incur an incomplete journey whilst travelling within the zones covered
by their season ticket."

It also reiterates this as a key point near the end of the briefing:

"The OEP will stay active on the card until it is validated outside of
the Zones covered by their Season ticket, an incomplete journey occurs
or it is removed."

The blurb about OEPs clearly states:
"Only set your permit to your card just before you make your extension
journey"

I think that's good advice, intended to prevent the problem of incurring
a
hefty incomplete journey charge out to the fringe of the PAYG area
through simply forgetting to touch-out on a normal journey when an OEP
is loaded. I think that's the potential time-bomb effect that Roland
referred to.

I reckon that if you load an OEP on your card then fail to touch-out,
you simply lose the 'entry charge' that was applied on touching-in
(i.e. this sum being the 'max cash fare' charge).

I got that bit wrong. A PAYG deduction is indeed made on touching-in
when an OEP is loaded. The briefing document above simply says this is
an "entry charge" (which I think can be up to £6.50). I guess this would
just about cover the *one way* cost of the longest extension journey.
The correct fare is, as usual, calculated when touching-out.

Of course, this introduces another gotcha - you only need a balance of
£1.50 to set an OEP so you could lawfully travel out to, say, Epsom
Downs, leaving a negative balance on your card, find there is no Oyster
stop for miles and thus have no balance left for the return journey.

I read about another gotcha recently. Chap had a weekly season and PAYG
on his Oyster. Forgot to renew his season, but didn't realise because
the system had let him in on his PAYG balance. After the balance went
negative and he was refused entry he realised what had happened and
renewed his weekly season. He still couldn't get in, because a negative
PAYG balance over-rides a valid season.

If it's not a time-bomb, it's certainly a minefield!
--
Paul Terry

In message
,
Mizter T writes

I wonder whether if you set an OEP and then fail to touch out
anywhere, the 'maximum fare' gets charged?

Yes, I think that's what happens (apologies for implying otherwise
earlier).

(This could be achieved by
the gates/validators at the first station deducting the 'entry charge'
when an Oyster card with Travelcard loaded on it was touched-in -
normally, no 'entry charge' is deducted if there's a valid Travelcard
present.)

If an OEP is loaded and there's a season ticket on the Oyster, an entry
charge is always made at the starting station. If the passenger then
exits the system within the validity of their travelcard, the entry
charge is refunded when touching out and the OEP stays active. If they
touch out beyond their zones, the PAYG balance is adjusted to reflect
the additional fare and the OEP is deleted.

This is the time-bomb that Roland referred to: if you have an OEP
loaded, take a journey entirely within your travelcard zones, but forget
to touch out, you get an entry charge deducted.

I think the OEP gets wiped when one touches out at any station (i.e.
it doesn't have to be an NR station).

No - see my parallel posting.

See my comments above - *if* this is what's been implemented, then the
presence of a Travelcard + OEP on an Oyster card could cause the
'entry fee' to be deducted on touching-in - if the card wasn't then
touched-out somewhere, the punter wouldn;t get that money back.

Yes, I believe that's what would happen.

(So talk of max fare deductions being made on the 'next journey' isn't
really a correct way of looking at it - the deduction would happen at
the start of the initial journey.)

Yes - sorry for clouding the issue! In fact, if the entry charge caused
the PAYG balance to go negative, the Oyster couldn't be used again until
it was topped up - it is said that even the travelcard part of the
Oyster wouldn't work if there's a negative PAYG balance, although I have
only seen anecdotal evidence for this.
--
Paul Terry

On 28 Jan, 14:28, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 28, 2:06*pm, Andy wrote:





On 28 Jan, 13:50, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 28, 1:12*pm, Paul Terry wrote:

In message , Roland Perry
writes

So if you obtain an OEP, then change your mind about travelling
(perhaps your train is cancelled or stopped short because of "wires
down" or whatever, so you make alternative arrangements), there's a
massive penalty? It's a kind of "unexploded bomb" waiting to go off the
next time you touch in, within your normal zones.

You'd be OK if you can touch out normally. If the touch-out was within
your travelcard zones the OEP would then remain on the Oyster for
whenever it was next needed.

No, I don't believe it would remain there - my understanding is that
an OEP is cleared immediately on touching-out anywhere (regardless of
whether it's a Tube or NR station).

The blurb about OEPs clearly states:
"Only set your permit to your card just before you make your extension
journey"

- see under the 'How to use a Travelcard and pay as you go together on
National Rail' heading on this webpage:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx

It wouldn't make sense to just be able to set an OEP that lasted
forever - if that was possible, then everyone would just set one, and
it would no longer fulfil the role of showing the passenger's imminent
intention to travel beyond their Travelcard's zones.

My understanding is that an OEP lasts until you touch out beyond the
validity of your Travelcard and can last for much longer than a day.
It has the side effect of making touching in and out compulsory at all
times, otherwise there will be an unresolved journey. It does act as
an 'unexploded bomb' *from this point of view. What the charge will
actually be for not touching out is another matter.

I need to do some experimenting and see what I find - I haven't used
an OEP 'in anger' at all, but other stuff I've seen seemed to suggest
it got cleared as soon as one touched-out.

This did come up in the long thread and it was thought unlikely. What
if your journey involved an OSI, for example? If the OEP got removed
you could end up in trouble at the end of the journey. If OEPs were
enforced ...

On 27 Jan, 23:56, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 27, 10:49*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

MIG wrote:

The trouble is that the attractiveness to the punter isn't the main
consideration (if it's a consideration at all).

There was very strong determination to introduce Oyster and PAYG,
despite the popularity of travelcards (day and season), as evidenced
by the penalty cash fares for people not using it and the attempts to
claim that it was the new travelcard (and getting done by Advertising
Standards).

Good point. *If Oyster really were as brilliant as the TfL-apologists
like to claim, there'd be no need to bribe us to use it by increasing
the cost of real tickets.

Re MIGs initial point - that attractiveness to the punter isn't a
significant consideration - well, I disagree strongly, I think that's
utter balls - it's one of a few points in this (and another) thread
that I want to get back to when I get a moment.

I hesitate to say anything for fear or more right ends of wrong sticks
or wrong ends of right sticks being grabbed, but here goes.

I am not saying that TfL has no interest in what's attractive to
punters. I'm saying that the motivation for the introduction of
Oyster and PAYG was Something Else. (Possibilities include cash flow,
reduction in selling facilities, prevention of ticketless travel,
better journey data etc etc ... plus I've come up with a new plot
synopsis for The Sarah Jane Adventures.)

There have been attempts to make it attractive, and even stronger
attempts to make the alternatives unattractive, but it wasn't
introduced because it was attractive.

Are you really suggesting that there was a public clamour for the
introduction of a smartcard system before anyone had heard of it? I
think that people were very happy with travelcards and the flexibility
that they offered.

It's true that once Oyster had been partially introduced, there was
then a strong call for the job to be finished, because the partial
introduction, along with some draconian decisions about cash fares and
unresolved journeys, created problems for a lot of people.

Alternative solutions would have been to change some of those
decisions, or even to abandon the whole thing (which I am suggesting
is definitely NOT going to happen because motives exist for keeping
the system).

the same a few days later (but using a Tube station ticket machine).

Then several days after that, I tried using this Oyster card to travel
from an NR station (a Southern one) - the gates there refused entry
and emitted the error beep whilst displaying "seek assistance"
message, so I went to the ticket machine and removed the OEP then
tried again - voila, no problem, the gates let me pass and I was
charged teh correct amount for the journey. (On each occasion I'd used
the Oyster card in pure PAYG mode, no Travelcard or Bus Pass loaded on
it.)

I've yet to totally get my head round OEPs - there's a lengthy utl
thread on them that I haven't read through yet, plus stuff on the
London Reconnections blog. (I wasn't really following such things for
a while so have some catching up to do!)

I've had an OEP on my Z1-6 Annual Gold card since the 2nd January, and
it hasn't caused any problems. (it lets me see my journeys on the
online journey history)

On Jan 28, 2:28*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 28, 2:06*pm, Andy wrote:





On 28 Jan, 13:50, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 28, 1:12*pm, Paul Terry wrote:

In message , Roland Perry
writes

So if you obtain an OEP, then change your mind about travelling
(perhaps your train is cancelled or stopped short because of "wires
down" or whatever, so you make alternative arrangements), there's a
massive penalty? It's a kind of "unexploded bomb" waiting to go off the
next time you touch in, within your normal zones.

You'd be OK if you can touch out normally. If the touch-out was within
your travelcard zones the OEP would then remain on the Oyster for
whenever it was next needed.

No, I don't believe it would remain there - my understanding is that
an OEP is cleared immediately on touching-out anywhere (regardless of
whether it's a Tube or NR station).

The blurb about OEPs clearly states:
"Only set your permit to your card just before you make your extension
journey"

- see under the 'How to use a Travelcard and pay as you go together on
National Rail' heading on this webpage:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx

It wouldn't make sense to just be able to set an OEP that lasted
forever - if that was possible, then everyone would just set one, and
it would no longer fulfil the role of showing the passenger's imminent
intention to travel beyond their Travelcard's zones.

My understanding is that an OEP lasts until you touch out beyond the
validity of your Travelcard and can last for much longer than a day.
It has the side effect of making touching in and out compulsory at all
times, otherwise there will be an unresolved journey. It does act as
an 'unexploded bomb' *from this point of view. What the charge will
actually be for not touching out is another matter.

I need to do some experimenting and see what I find - I haven't used
an OEP 'in anger' at all, but other stuff I've seen seemed to suggest
it got cleared as soon as one touched-out.

If you see my other post, you'll see that out of curiosity I set an
OEP on one of my Oyster cards, then used it on the bus, then several
days later tried to use it to enter a gated NR station (a Southern
one) - I got an error message and beep, so went to the ticket machine
(that was thankfully working) and removed the OEP that was still
present, then went and tried it on the gates and was allowed in as
normal (and was then charged as normal).


Did you use the Oyster at any point on the NR system, rather than
buses, between setting the OEP and the error at the ticket barrier?
That's the obvious first experiment, set the OEP on a PAYG only card
and see if you can use it immediately to travel on NR.

So one of my contentions is that whilst an OEP might stay on one's
card if unused, it loses it's magic after x amount of time, so much so
that it actually prevents you from starting a journey unless you
remove it (and then reset it if necessary). Of course most people
won't set an OEP and then not use it in the imminent future... unless
they do so at a newsagents (Oyster Ticket Stop), then get to a station
to find the trains not running, then opt to take the bus instead.



From my limited experimentation (see my other post), it seems that
whilst the OEP flag does indeed stay set on the card, if it is not
used within a certain time period then it prevents the card from being
used to start a new journey (at least a new rail journey - buses seem
ok). Shame the OEP can't be automatically unset, but perhaps that's a
limitation of the Oyster system architecture (as I see it, it's being
made to do something it wasn't really designed to do in the first
place). But maybe I haven't considered something else.

But if you didn't have a Travelcard season on the card (which I think
is what you described), it is hard to make comparisons. The OEP will
have been set under conditions where it has no use.

I had no Travelcard loaded on it, no. However I'm tempted to think the
OEP is a simple flag on the card, albeit one that loses its 'magic'
after x amount of time.


I believe you are correct in it being a flag, but a simple flag would
have no time limit. My take is that your error is due to having the
OEP flag and no travelcard which the rail ticket barriers can't cope
with when working out what to do next. Buses of course don't care
whether there is an OEP set.

Sometime I might have the volition to do some more complex experiments
(and the associated willingness to lose some money in the process!).
To do some more hardcore experimentation, one might want a season
Travelcard loaded on Oyster that one is then willing to leave unused
for a day or two.


I will try and remember to get an OEP set and then see if it is
cleared on the train tomorrow, the journey would only be within my
Travelcard zones.



But you're right that there's an element of risk there - it's easy to
forget to touch out at ungated stations, especially ones that are
unfamiliar. In such circumstances it would be wise to get the OEP
removed (which can be done at any place where an OEP can be loaded)
before using the Oyster card to re-enter the system.

It's a crazy system, isn't it?

I reckon that if you load an OEP on your card then fail to touch-out,
you simply lose the 'entry charge' that was applied on touching-in
(i.e. this sum being the 'max cash fare' charge).

On Jan 28, 8:02*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jan 28, 2:28*pm, Mizter T wrote:





On Jan 28, 2:06*pm, Andy wrote:

On 28 Jan, 13:50, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 28, 1:12*pm, Paul Terry wrote:

In message , Roland Perry
writes

So if you obtain an OEP, then change your mind about travelling
(perhaps your train is cancelled or stopped short because of "wires
down" or whatever, so you make alternative arrangements), there's a
massive penalty? It's a kind of "unexploded bomb" waiting to go off the
next time you touch in, within your normal zones.

You'd be OK if you can touch out normally. If the touch-out was within
your travelcard zones the OEP would then remain on the Oyster for
whenever it was next needed.

No, I don't believe it would remain there - my understanding is that
an OEP is cleared immediately on touching-out anywhere (regardless of
whether it's a Tube or NR station).

The blurb about OEPs clearly states:
"Only set your permit to your card just before you make your extension
journey"

- see under the 'How to use a Travelcard and pay as you go together on
National Rail' heading on this webpage:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx

It wouldn't make sense to just be able to set an OEP that lasted
forever - if that was possible, then everyone would just set one, and
it would no longer fulfil the role of showing the passenger's imminent
intention to travel beyond their Travelcard's zones.

My understanding is that an OEP lasts until you touch out beyond the
validity of your Travelcard and can last for much longer than a day.
It has the side effect of making touching in and out compulsory at all
times, otherwise there will be an unresolved journey. It does act as
an 'unexploded bomb' *from this point of view. What the charge will
actually be for not touching out is another matter.

I need to do some experimenting and see what I find - I haven't used
an OEP 'in anger' at all, but other stuff I've seen seemed to suggest
it got cleared as soon as one touched-out.

If you see my other post, you'll see that out of curiosity I set an
OEP on one of my Oyster cards, then used it on the bus, then several
days later tried to use it to enter a gated NR station (a Southern
one) - I got an error message and beep, so went to the ticket machine
(that was thankfully working) and removed the OEP that was still
present, then went and tried it on the gates and was allowed in as
normal (and was then charged as normal).

Did you use the Oyster at any point on the NR system, rather than
buses, between setting the OEP and the error at the ticket barrier?
That's the obvious first experiment, set the OEP on a PAYG only card
and see if you can use it immediately to travel on NR.



So one of my contentions is that whilst an OEP might stay on one's
card if unused, it loses it's magic after x amount of time, so much so
that it actually prevents you from starting a journey unless you
remove it (and then reset it if necessary). Of course most people
won't set an OEP and then not use it in the imminent future... unless
they do so at a newsagents (Oyster Ticket Stop), then get to a station
to find the trains not running, then opt to take the bus instead.

From my limited experimentation (see my other post), it seems that
whilst the OEP flag does indeed stay set on the card, if it is not
used within a certain time period then it prevents the card from being
used to start a new journey (at least a new rail journey - buses seem
ok). Shame the OEP can't be automatically unset, but perhaps that's a
limitation of the Oyster system architecture (as I see it, it's being
made to do something it wasn't really designed to do in the first
place). But maybe I haven't considered something else.

But if you didn't have a Travelcard season on the card (which I think
is what you described), it is hard to make comparisons. The OEP will
have been set under conditions where it has no use.

I had no Travelcard loaded on it, no. However I'm tempted to think the
OEP is a simple flag on the card, albeit one that loses its 'magic'
after x amount of time.

I believe you are correct in it being a flag, but a simple flag would
have no time limit. My take is that your error is due to having the
OEP flag and no travelcard which the rail ticket barriers can't cope
with when working out what to do next. Buses of course don't care
whether there is an OEP set.

Sometime I might have the volition to do some more complex experiments
(and the associated willingness to lose some money in the process!).
To do some more hardcore experimentation, one might want a season
Travelcard loaded on Oyster that one is then willing to leave unused
for a day or two.

I will try and remember to get an OEP set and then see if it is
cleared on the train tomorrow, the journey would only be within my
Travelcard zones.


Actually, having read the rest of the thread, esp postings from Paul
Terry, I don't think I need to bother

I knew I'd seen the information somewhere about how the OEPs work.

"Matthew Dickinson" wrote in message
...

I've had an OEP on my Z1-6 Annual Gold card since the 2nd January, and
it hasn't caused any problems. (it lets me see my journeys on the
online journey history)

Presumably it'll sit there for ever if you never touch out in zones W or G
then?

Paul

On Jan 28, 7:40*pm, MIG wrote:

On 27 Jan, 23:56, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 27, 10:49*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

MIG wrote:

The trouble is that the attractiveness to the punter isn't the main
consideration (if it's a consideration at all).

There was very strong determination to introduce Oyster and PAYG,
despite the popularity of travelcards (day and season), as evidenced
by the penalty cash fares for people not using it and the attempts to
claim that it was the new travelcard (and getting done by Advertising
Standards).

Good point. *If Oyster really were as brilliant as the TfL-apologists
like to claim, there'd be no need to bribe us to use it by increasing
the cost of real tickets.

Re MIGs initial point - that attractiveness to the punter isn't a
significant consideration - well, I disagree strongly, I think that's
utter balls - it's one of a few points in this (and another) thread
that I want to get back to when I get a moment.

I hesitate to say anything for fear or more right ends of wrong sticks
or wrong ends of right sticks being grabbed, but here goes.

I am not saying that TfL has no interest in what's attractive to
punters. *I'm saying that the motivation for the introduction of
Oyster and PAYG was Something Else. *(Possibilities include cash flow,
reduction in selling facilities, prevention of ticketless travel,
better journey data etc etc ... plus I've come up with a new plot
synopsis for The Sarah Jane Adventures.)

There have been attempts to make it attractive, and even stronger
attempts to make the alternatives unattractive, but it wasn't
introduced because it was attractive.

Are you really suggesting that there was a public clamour for the
introduction of a smartcard system before anyone had heard of it? *I
think that people were very happy with travelcards and the flexibility
that they offered.

It's true that once Oyster had been partially introduced, there was
then a strong call for the job to be finished, because the partial
introduction, along with some draconian decisions about cash fares and
unresolved journeys, created problems for a lot of people.

Alternative solutions would have been to change some of those
decisions, or even to abandon the whole thing (which I am suggesting
is definitely NOT going to happen because motives exist for keeping
the system).

This is good MIG - this exchange provides an opportunity for us to set
out our respective stalls! I'm not going to reply right this very
moment, because this deserves a properly considered response. What I
will very briefly say is that I think we do have a fundamentally
different take on some basic things, which goes some way to explaining
other disagreements that surround the whole issue of Oyster. That's
enough of a teaser - I'll endeavour to post my response tomorrow (and
I won't forget, coz I think this might clear things up for the both of
us as well as anyone else insane enough to be observing!).

In message , Steve
Dulieu writes
Although that minor complication could be getting a bit less minor,
yesterday I traveled from Kingston to Hammersmith via Richmond. At
Richmond I saw a yellow oyster pad on the platform as I got off the
train from Kingston "Ah-ha thinks I, just the thing to end my journey
and let my staff pass take over". Just in time I noticed that the
display said "touch here for interchange" and that the yellow pad had
the word "Pink" handwritten twice above and below the oyster symbol in
blue biro. At which point I decided that it was belt and braces time
and exited the barrier with my oyster, turned around and came back in
with my staff pass. I must admit, that from my first weekend (see tale
of woe up thread) I'm not hugely impressed.

Stick to Munich, mate. None of this messing about here
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)