In message 01ca9dfe$3cdf4680$a5d3403e@default, at 22:16:15 on Mon, 25
Jan 2010, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:

Now my draft explanaion of OSIs
===========
As you know Bob, in Britain fares work differently on buses and trains,
on a journey by bus each bus taken is a separate fare,

"in London", perhaps. There are buses elsewhere in Britain with through
ticketing.

but on trains
and underground you are charged a fare for the whole journey even if
you have to change en route.

In the usual case when you never go through an exit barrier until your
journey is complete Oyster's only difficulty in working out the proper
fare on trains and underground is deciding what route you took but, for
example when changing between rail and underground, you will often go
though an exit barrier then a little later go through an entrance gate
to continue your journey.
In some case this may involve crossing the street to a station with a
different name or to a different part of the same rail or underground
station but in all such cases Oyster must recognise that a jouney is
not ending but continuing Thus for this purpose the Euston - Kings
Cross - St Pancras interchange consists of three rail stations and
three underground stations (because of Euston Square) and the Victoria
interchange is two barriered rail stations - Victoria (Southern) &
Victoria (SouthEastern) plus an underground station..

I wouldn't use the Euston/KX example as there are other complications,
and the three ticket halls at KX doesn't help either. The Victoria
example is sufficient.

Or you could make a generic example of "most terminal stations" that
have separate barrier lines for National Rail and Underground; or pick a
less complex station with two sets of barriers (eg Vauxhall). A good
example on the Underground is Hammersmith, with two stations either side
of the road, and fairly easy to find on a map because many readers will
want to cross-check to make sure they understand.

If at one of these interchanges (Out of Station Interchanges, OSIs) you
pass through another entrance gate within the specified time allowance,
say 20 minutes, the journey is regarded as continuing. After that time
or if you touch in on a bus or go to some other station that ends the
old journey.

====

Critics, please remember we want to leave out as much detail as
possible and just get the concept over. I don't want to mention /here/
that Kings Cross (Metropolitan) still counts as yet another underground
station nor that some stations don't have barriers, only validators and
so forth.





--
Roland Perry

No, not correct. It is impossible to load any Oyster product to a staff
pass.
There are other scenarios where mid journey validation could be
necessary. This is why I am joining MIG's campaign for validators on
trains ;-)

My suggestion for TfL would be to use a postpaid solution. Put an
all-zones travelcard on the staff pass but require you to always touch
in and out. Then do some data mining and calculate the appropriate fare.
Deduce it from the pay check.

But that's probably to easy.

X-No-Archive

On Jan 26, 7:45*am, MIG wrote:
On 25 Jan, 17:41, Mizter T wrote:



On Jan 25, 4:37*pm, "John Salmon" wrote:

"MIG" wrote

And there's never been any proper reason for refusing to put day
travelcards on Oyster anyway. *It's extra money up front, and the punter
still buys into the Oyster system.
Instead of charging an uncapped maximum single fare for unresolved
journeys, the system could charge a day travelcard instead, and let the
punter use it as such thereafter.

That sounds like a very good idea. *Is there any technical reason why it
can't be done?

Why's it a good idea? There's absolutely no need or calling for it
(esp. now that PAYG is acceptable on NR) - if you want a Day
Travelcard, you get a Day Travelcard. Why totally muddy the waters by
offering it on Oyster, especially now.

(MIG used to call for this in the days before PAYG was accepted on NR,
but didn't ever seem to want to acknowledge just how confusing a
situation this would have created - factor in PAYG being available for
tickets extensions on the Tube but not most NR lines and it would have
just been totally daft. And if it ever had been available then the
impetus to actually get NR to accept PAYG would have been diminished -
that was the big prize that has finally been achieved, much to the
immense gratitude of travellers in London. I honestly can't believe
he's still bringing this suggestion up now, it's *totally* daft.)

Honestly, I think this needs a bit of explaining. *Why does it always
have to be give with one hand and take with the other?

The travelcard is probably the best and most revolutionary thing that
ever happened to transport usage in London. *It gave total
interavailability.

One slight downside was that you might not know for sure if you were
going to make enough journeys to make it worthwhile. *So *a "nice to
have" is a ticketing product that allows punters to build up
individual journeys to a maximum. *People were not crying out for
this, but one can see the advantage.

But no one ever ever ever called for day travelcards to be got rid
of. *There's no point having the icing on the cake if the price is
losing the cake.

Nor did they call for cash single fares to be hiked by over 100% or
for returns to be abolished.

What people want is stress-free transport, with interavailability,
minimal queueing and best value.

It is claimed that Oyster PAYG offfers this, but it's rather twisting
the truth to claim that therefore people want Oyster. *If it doesn't
deliever those Good Things, then what people want is something that
does. *That's still the travelcard in most situations.

The motives for introducing Oyster are very much to do with cash flow
and so on, not purely the convenience of the punter. *If there are
motives for getting Oyster into people's pockets, surely putting such
a popular product on it would be a way of doing that?

I entirely agree.

Putting the ODTC and in its variants on Oyster would obviate the need
for all/much of the PAYG infrastructure - yellow validators, pink
validators, OSIs, OEPs, Oyster helpline and all. The system has
become ridiculously complex to the point where even those, like
posters here, with a reasonable understanding of it, can be foxed.

Another driving force in PAYG is of course, the suppliers of the IT
kit that supports it all. The simple ODTC concept could be supported
by magcard technology. PAYG must require enormous computing resource
to apply an ever-increasing panoply of 'rules'.

As in many other cities/towns, here and abroad, if you are setting out
for a day's travel, making a value judgement between a "day rover" of
some sort, or paying individual fares, is almost always a no-brainer.
The day rover usually pays for itself after a few journeys and offers
a further benefit - convenience. The risk - that you might pay more
than if you paid individual journeys is slight, especially with TfL-
style high cash fares.

The mistake made with PAYG is to assume that cost is the only benefit
consumers seek. It isn't. Many will happily trade cost off against
convenience (and a stress-free journey). Which is what the ODTC
gives.

The big question is whether anyone at TfL is bold enough to point out
the emperor's lack of clothes, and call for PAYG to be scrapped before
it gets even more complex.

DRH

Roland Perry wrote:
In message 01ca9dfe$3cdf4680$a5d3403e@default, at 22:16:15 on Mon,
25 Jan 2010, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:

In some case this may involve crossing the street to a station with a
different name or to a different part of the same rail or underground
station but in all such cases Oyster must recognise that a jouney is
not ending but continuing Thus for this purpose the Euston - Kings
Cross - St Pancras interchange consists of three rail stations and
three underground stations (because of Euston Square) and the
Victoria interchange is two barriered rail stations - Victoria
(Southern) & Victoria (SouthEastern) plus an underground station..

I wouldn't use the Euston/KX example as there are other complications,
and the three ticket halls at KX doesn't help either. The Victoria
example is sufficient.

Er.. I wouldn't use Euston/KX as an example as it doesn't seem to be an
OSI...

Paul S

DRH wrote:

Putting the ODTC and in its variants on Oyster would obviate the need
for all/much of the PAYG infrastructure - yellow validators, pink
validators, OSIs, OEPs, Oyster helpline and all. The system has
become ridiculously complex to the point where even those, like
posters here, with a reasonable understanding of it, can be foxed.

If you get rid of all those things how will the system combine a couple of
short single journeys with an interchange outside the gateline into one?
Are you saying why bother, just charge a day travelcard rate anyway?

Paul S

On Jan 26, 10:55*am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
DRH wrote:
Putting the ODTC and in its variants on Oyster would obviate the need
for all/much of the PAYG infrastructure - yellow validators, pink
validators, OSIs, OEPs, Oyster helpline and all. *The system has
become ridiculously complex to the point where even those, like
posters here, with a reasonable understanding of it, can be foxed.

If you get rid of all those things how will the system combine a couple of
short single journeys with an interchange outside the gateline into one?
Are you saying why bother, just charge a day travelcard rate anyway?

Paul S

A value judgement: either pay two single fares (if these are the only
journeys you make in a day) or buy a ODTC (if you are making
several). As in most fare systems, there is an element of inequality
which can only be avoided/reduced by immensely complex systems like
PAYG.

But how many journeys combine two short single journeys with an
interchange outside the gateline? I imagine these are far from the
norm. They become less of an issue if single fares are not set at
draconian levels.

DRH

DRH wrote:
On Jan 26, 10:55 am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
DRH wrote:
Putting the ODTC and in its variants on Oyster would obviate the
need for all/much of the PAYG infrastructure - yellow validators,
pink validators, OSIs, OEPs, Oyster helpline and all. The system has
become ridiculously complex to the point where even those, like
posters here, with a reasonable understanding of it, can be foxed.

If you get rid of all those things how will the system combine a
couple of short single journeys with an interchange outside the
gateline into one? Are you saying why bother, just charge a day
travelcard rate anyway?

Paul S

A value judgement: either pay two single fares (if these are the only
journeys you make in a day) or buy a ODTC (if you are making
several). As in most fare systems, there is an element of inequality
which can only be avoided/reduced by immensely complex systems like
PAYG.

But how many journeys combine two short single journeys with an
interchange outside the gateline? I imagine these are far from the
norm. They become less of an issue if single fares are not set at
draconian levels.

I believe they are quite common from areas in South London into zone 1 via
main line terminals.

Paul S

In message
, at
03:17:45 on Tue, 26 Jan 2010, DRH remarked:
But how many journeys combine two short single journeys with an
interchange outside the gateline? I imagine these are far from the
norm.

Now that there's Oyster acceptance on National Rail, most journeys
through a terminus. If you want equality of fares from (eg Finsbury Park
to Gt Portland St, irrespective of whether you use tube or NR for
Finsbury Park to Kings Cross, you have to allow an outboundary change.

However, what was probably the most common outboundary change within the
tube system is now in-boundary (deep level to subsurface at KX).
--
Roland Perry

On Jan 26, 11:37*am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
DRH wrote:
On Jan 26, 10:55 am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
DRH wrote:
Putting the ODTC and in its variants on Oyster would obviate the
need for all/much of the PAYG infrastructure - yellow validators,
pink validators, OSIs, OEPs, Oyster helpline and all. The system has
become ridiculously complex to the point where even those, like
posters here, with a reasonable understanding of it, can be foxed.

If you get rid of all those things how will the system combine a
couple of short single journeys with an interchange outside the
gateline into one? Are you saying why bother, just charge a day
travelcard rate anyway?

Paul S

A value judgement: either pay two single fares (if these are the only
journeys you make in a day) or *buy a ODTC (if you are making
several). * As in most fare systems, there is an element of inequality
which can only be avoided/reduced by immensely complex systems like
PAYG.

But how many journeys combine two short single journeys with an
interchange outside the gateline? *I imagine these are far from the
norm. They become less of an issue if single fares are not set at
draconian levels.

I believe they are quite common from areas in South London into zone 1 via
main line terminals.

Paul S

A part solution is some form of 'short hop' fare that reduces the cost
disparity between a single continuous journey and two journeys
necessary only because of the historical/geographic quirks of the
transport system, but which equate to the same distance covered. In
Europe, the transfer ticket is an example.

DRH

In article
,
(DRH) wrote:

On Jan 26, 10:55*am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
DRH wrote:
Putting the ODTC and in its variants on Oyster would obviate the
need for all/much of the PAYG infrastructure - yellow validators,
pink validators, OSIs, OEPs, Oyster helpline and all.*The system has
become ridiculously complex to the point where even those, like
posters here, with a reasonable understanding of it, can be foxed.

If you get rid of all those things how will the system combine a
couple of short single journeys with an interchange outside the
gateline into one?
Are you saying why bother, just charge a day travelcard rate
anyway?

A value judgement: either pay two single fares (if these are the only
journeys you make in a day) or buy a ODTC (if you are making
several). As in most fare systems, there is an element of inequality
which can only be avoided/reduced by immensely complex systems like
PAYG.

That's what PAYG does much more conveniently for the vast majority, pay
for single journeys without queuing up for tickets all the time. I almost
never travel enough by tube these days to need a ODTC, even at the
discounted rate I get one combined with an off-Peak Day Return from
Cambridge.

--
Colin Rosenstiel