"Mizter T" wrote in message

On Jan 25, 1:09 pm, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
,
at 04:13:34 on Mon, 25 Jan 2010, MIG
remarked:

Is it possible for a ticket office to terminate a journey for you,
eg when you are in an OSI but want to start a new journey, either
with a long timeout or it's now off peak but wasn't when the first
journey started?

It's an added complication, but maybe you need a new kind of
validator (on the wall somewhere near a ticket office) which
terminates your journey *now* if you touch on it.

No, that would make it all to complicated.

And it's not already????

On 25 Jan, 15:59, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 25, 3:43*pm, Roland Perry wrote:





In message
, at
07:32:52 on Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Mizter T remarked:

eg you go from Greenwich to Charing Cross (with a change at
London Bridge), take your snaps of Nelson, then go into the
Underground for a trip to Kew Gardens. Because Charing Cross is an
OSI, probably with a long timeout, the whole thing ends up as a single
journey which could go beyond the time limit, leaving you with an
unresolved journey and an unstarted journey at Kew, both of which are
charged at maximum. Once you've got an unresolved journey (I'm pretty
sure) all capping goes out of the window.

That's bonkers! The system has the time I touched back in at Charing
Cross, and can therefore update its expectation of when I could possibly
get to Kew.

I've a suspicion the system might work on the basis of what the time
was when the (original) journey started

Yes, it probably does. That's why it's bonkers!

- so in this example the card
gets presented to an Oyster pad at Kew which queries what time the
original journey started (i.e. when the first touch-in happened, not
what happened at CX), then checks this against the table of
permissible maximum journey times, then if it's exceeded it presumes
that the pax is in fact ending a different journey where they didn't
touch-in when they began it - voila, two 'max fare' charges end up
being applied (though the mechanism of these charges being applied is
actually that they're deducted at the beginning of a normal journey,
then refunded at the end on exit from the system - though in the case
of the touch-out at Kew it's just taken there and then).

On the other hand, if it wants to spot someone getting "too much value
for money", then rather than create two unresolved journeys, it could
split the trip at Charing Cross, and charge two individual journeys.

I think one possible issue would be that this would require the Oyster
pads and cards to perform calculations beyond their capabilities -
looking back at the recent journey history and then splitting
previously combined journeys, especially complex if there were
multiple OSIs during the journey.

Doesn't it talk to a mainframe?

No, not to perform that calculation - it's done there and then,
without any need to talk to the central database to work it out. None
of the transactions between card and Oyster pad involve live
communication with the database, which makes a lot of sense for
several reasons.

That's not to say that Oyster pads at stations aren't all hooked up to
the system, but that's not the same thing as live database look-ups
happening whenever an Oyster card is presented.

I dare say that in this and other discussions we're making a whole
host of dodgy and inaccurate assumptions, are not taking several
important factors into account, and are perhaps guilty of leaping to
conclusions - I can imagine someone who understood the guts of the
system grimacing as they read it! Nonetheless, a function that's
supposed to make life smoother and more seamless for pax - that of out-
of-station interchanges (OSIs) - does often appear to be at the root
of the problems that people encounter with Oyster.

The bottom line, going back to the original question, is that the
stress, uncertainty and risk of being out of pocket can be avoided
with a day travelcard, as long as they are available. I'd like to
hope that they will continue to be available till Oyster can genuinely
offer a comprehensive, stress-free, risk-free replacement for them.

And there's never been any proper reason for refusing to put day
travelcards on Oyster anyway. It's extra money up front, and the
punter still buys into the Oyster system.

Instead of charging an uncapped maximum single fare for unresolved
journeys, the system could charge a day travelcard instead, and let
the punter use it as such thereafter.

On Jan 25, 4:08*pm, "Recliner" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

On Jan 25, 1:09 pm, Roland Perry wrote:

MIG remarked:
Is it possible for a ticket office to terminate a journey for you,
eg when you are in an OSI but want to start a new journey, either
with a long timeout or it's now off peak but wasn't when the first
journey started?

It's an added complication, but maybe you need a new kind of
validator (on the wall somewhere near a ticket office) which
terminates your journey *now* if you touch on it.

No, that would make it all to complicated.

And it's not already????

Theoretically, no - you just touch-in at the beginning of your
journey, and touch-out at the end. (OK, just one minor complication -
you touch on a pink route validator when you pass one if you're
specifically routing your journey to avoid zone 1.)

What's a shame is that the OSI system (or at least the implementation
thereof) appears to be causing a certain degree of grief.

"MIG" wrote
And there's never been any proper reason for refusing to put day
travelcards on Oyster anyway. It's extra money up front, and the punter
still buys into the Oyster system.
Instead of charging an uncapped maximum single fare for unresolved
journeys, the system could charge a day travelcard instead, and let the
punter use it as such thereafter.

That sounds like a very good idea. Is there any technical reason why it
can't be done?

On Jan 25, 4:37*pm, "John Salmon" wrote:

"MIG" wrote

And there's never been any proper reason for refusing to put day
travelcards on Oyster anyway. *It's extra money up front, and the punter
still buys into the Oyster system.
Instead of charging an uncapped maximum single fare for unresolved
journeys, the system could charge a day travelcard instead, and let the
punter use it as such thereafter.

That sounds like a very good idea. *Is there any technical reason why it
can't be done?

Why's it a good idea? There's absolutely no need or calling for it
(esp. now that PAYG is acceptable on NR) - if you want a Day
Travelcard, you get a Day Travelcard. Why totally muddy the waters by
offering it on Oyster, especially now.

(MIG used to call for this in the days before PAYG was accepted on NR,
but didn't ever seem to want to acknowledge just how confusing a
situation this would have created - factor in PAYG being available for
tickets extensions on the Tube but not most NR lines and it would have
just been totally daft. And if it ever had been available then the
impetus to actually get NR to accept PAYG would have been diminished -
that was the big prize that has finally been achieved, much to the
immense gratitude of travellers in London. I honestly can't believe
he's still bringing this suggestion up now, it's *totally* daft.)

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On Jan 25, 4:08 pm, "Recliner" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

On Jan 25, 1:09 pm, Roland Perry wrote:

MIG remarked:
Is it possible for a ticket office to terminate a journey for you,
eg when you are in an OSI but want to start a new journey, either
with a long timeout or it's now off peak but wasn't when the first
journey started?

It's an added complication, but maybe you need a new kind of
validator (on the wall somewhere near a ticket office) which
terminates your journey *now* if you touch on it.

No, that would make it all to complicated.

And it's not already????

Theoretically, no - you just touch-in at the beginning of your
journey, and touch-out at the end. (OK, just one minor complication -
you touch on a pink route validator when you pass one if you're
specifically routing your journey to avoid zone 1.)

What's a shame is that the OSI system (or at least the implementation
thereof) appears to be causing a certain degree of grief.

Although that minor complication could be getting a bit less minor,
yesterday I traveled from Kingston to Hammersmith via Richmond. At Richmond
I saw a yellow oyster pad on the platform as I got off the train from
Kingston "Ah-ha thinks I, just the thing to end my journey and let my staff
pass take over". Just in time I noticed that the display said "touch here
for interchange" and that the yellow pad had the word "Pink" handwritten
twice above and below the oyster symbol in blue biro. At which point I
decided that it was belt and braces time and exited the barrier with my
oyster, turned around and came back in with my staff pass. I must admit,
that from my first weekend (see tale of woe up thread) I'm not hugely
impressed.
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.

"Steve Dulieu" wrote in message
om...


Although that minor complication could be getting a bit less minor,
yesterday I traveled from Kingston to Hammersmith via Richmond. At
Richmond I saw a yellow oyster pad on the platform as I got off the train
from Kingston "Ah-ha thinks I, just the thing to end my journey and let my
staff pass take over". Just in time I noticed that the display said "touch
here for interchange" and that the yellow pad had the word "Pink"
handwritten twice above and below the oyster symbol in blue biro. At which
point I decided that it was belt and braces time and exited the barrier
with my oyster, turned around and came back in with my staff pass. I must
admit, that from my first weekend (see tale of woe up thread) I'm not
hugely impressed.

Oops, pressed send abit premature there, that last bit should read ..."that
from my first weekend of oyster usage (see tale of woe upthread) I'm not
hugely impressed.
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.

Steve Dulieu wrote:

Although that minor complication could be getting a bit less minor,
yesterday I traveled from Kingston to Hammersmith via Richmond. At
Richmond I saw a yellow oyster pad on the platform as I got off the
train from Kingston "Ah-ha thinks I, just the thing to end my journey
and let my staff pass take over". Just in time I noticed that the
display said "touch here for interchange" and that the yellow pad had
the word "Pink" handwritten twice above and below the oyster symbol
in blue biro. At which point I decided that it was belt and braces
time and exited the barrier with my oyster, turned around and came
back in with my staff pass. I must admit, that from my first weekend
(see tale of woe up thread) I'm not hugely impressed.

There have been posts here suggesting that these (and many other) LU/LO/NR
interchange stations still need both yellow AND pink validators on the
platforms, as pax may still need to touch in having arrived on a NR paper
ticket from outside the zones.

I'm sure someone posted last year that the platform validators at West
Brompton had been changed to Pink, yet still functioned as Yellow at the
same time as well. I can see that working if the Oyster card has't been
touched IN before, but how can the system decide whether to treat a
subsequent touch (having started elsewhere) as either interchange or a touch
OUT correctly? Hope that makes sense...

Paul S

On Jan 25, 6:08*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
Steve Dulieu wrote:
Although that minor complication could be getting a bit less minor,
yesterday I traveled from Kingston to Hammersmith via Richmond. At
Richmond I saw a yellow oyster pad on the platform as I got off the
train from Kingston "Ah-ha thinks I, just the thing to end my journey
and let my staff pass take over". Just in time I noticed that the
display said "touch here for interchange" and that the yellow pad had
the word "Pink" handwritten twice above and below the oyster symbol
in blue biro. At which point I decided that it was belt and braces
time and exited the barrier with my oyster, turned around and came
back in with my staff pass. I must admit, that from my first weekend
(see tale of woe up thread) I'm not hugely impressed.

There have been posts here suggesting that these (and many other) LU/LO/NR
interchange stations still need both yellow AND pink validators on the
platforms, as pax may still need to touch in having arrived on a NR paper
ticket from outside the zones.

I'm sure someone posted last year that the platform validators at West
Brompton had been changed to Pink, yet still functioned as Yellow at the
same time as well. * I can see that working if the Oyster card has't been
touched IN before, but how can the system decide whether to treat a
subsequent touch (having started elsewhere) as either interchange or a touch
OUT correctly? Hope that makes sense...


My understanding is that the Pink interchange validators are exactly
the same as yellow for starting and ending journeys, but also act to
validate an interchange when there might be alternative routes. In
other words, they will mark a journey as having been ended (and the
relevant fare charged), unless a later OUT validation happens at
another location. Touching OUT at the second spot calculates the
correct fare 'via' the first validator and either deducts or adds the
relevant amount to the balance. So without the second validation, you
have touched OUT normally.

"Mizter T" wrote
"John Salmon" wrote:
"MIG" wrote

And there's never been any proper reason for refusing to put day
travelcards on Oyster anyway. It's extra money up front, and the punter
still buys into the Oyster system. Instead of charging an uncapped
maximum single fare for unresolved journeys, the system could charge a
day travelcard instead, and let the punter use it as such thereafter.

That sounds like a very good idea. Is there any technical reason why it
can't be done?

Why's it a good idea? There's absolutely no need or calling for it (esp.
now that PAYG is acceptable on NR) - if you want a Day Travelcard, you get
a Day Travelcard. Why totally muddy the waters by offering it on Oyster,
especially now.

Prior to this month I had been using Day Travelcards during most of my
visits to London, but I hoped and believed that this would no longer be
necessary now that all NR lines within the zones are included within the
validity of Oyster PAYG. Unfortunately it is now clear that the behaviour
of Oyster PAYG at OSIs is seriously screwing things up for quite a few of
the regular posters on here and on uk.r. I think both MIG and I are looking
for a solution that gets round this problem. The suggestion that Day
Travelcards might be made capable of being put on Oyster seems to be one
such way. Another would be to provide some means of definitively ending a
journey at a location classed as an OSI, i.e. a means of preventing the
system from linking journeys when the customer doesn't want this to happen.

I am rather surprised that an apparent advocate of Oyster should now be
seriously suggesting that some categories of passenger should need to take
the seemingly retrograde step of reverting to the use of paper Day
Travelcards.