On Apr 13, 1:45*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

MIG wrote:

On 13 Apr, 13:06, Mizter T wrote:

On Apr 13, 12:58 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Going back to the original yellow 'interchange validators' having
thought it through again. With extension to the NR routes they do
actually become a major PAYG loophole don't they. Your previous
suggestions about a 'soft exit' cover the situation. Transfer from
LU onto SWT at Wimbledon with a touch on an interchange validator
and the system will treat that as your exit - if you then don't
touch out on exit at an ungated station further down the line
you've saved a few zones. So perhaps most of them will be removed...

Yeah, you see where I'm coming from on that point.

But is it really any different from any other situation of travelling
without a valid ticket? *If you were determined to use that kind of
"loophole"*, you could still touch at the wide gate.

But a touch at a wide gate would be a proper touch out, not one of Mizter
T's 'soft exits'. [...]

If we're referring to a proper "wide aisle gate" (or WAG - LU
terminology!) then yes - it would register as a conclusive touch-out
and end of the journey - albeit one that could be re-opened as a
result of an OSI (e.g. entering the gates at London Bridge tube
station).

[...] If gripped further down the line the 'soft exit' shows up
but your account is still 'pending' a final touch out. IIRC from previous
discussions it will time out eventually?

Yes.


*It's not really a loophole, because it's simply travelling without a
ticket and, if you are gripped, you pays the price.

No, I think unless they've changed something you are still 'touched in'.

Yes.

Others might be able to explain better.

Not sure I've got the energy to invent the requisite terminology at
the moment!

The Oyster card is essentially left in an ambiguous state after
touching on a validator that's configured for (what I've called)
'interchange mode' - the journey may have finished, the journey might
be continuing - if it continues and is inspected, there's no problem
as it is correctly validated. If the journey doesn't continue, the
potential for a continuing journey eventually times out.

Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 13, 1:45 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Others might be able to explain better.

Not sure I've got the energy to invent the requisite terminology at
the moment!

The Oyster card is essentially left in an ambiguous state after
touching on a validator that's configured for (what I've called)
'interchange mode' - the journey may have finished, the journey might
be continuing - if it continues and is inspected, there's no problem
as it is correctly validated. If the journey doesn't continue, the
potential for a continuing journey eventually times out.

I'll store that away - it's as good an explanation as any of how I think it
works (or worked!)...

Paul S

On Apr 13, 2:05*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On Apr 13, 1:45 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Others might be able to explain better.

Not sure I've got the energy to invent the requisite terminology at
the moment!

The Oyster card is essentially left in an ambiguous state after
touching on a validator that's configured for (what I've called)
'interchange mode' - the journey may have finished, the journey might
be continuing - if it continues and is inspected, there's no problem
as it is correctly validated. If the journey doesn't continue, the
potential for a continuing journey eventually times out.

I'll store that away - it's as good an explanation as any of how I think it
works (or worked!)...

It does kinda make my brain hurt I admit, trying to fit it all
together and then explain it in a way that does actually makes some
sense!

It's not stuff that should concern the normal passenger though (at
least that's the theory). Touching on a validator *within a paid-area*
shouldn't matter - and I did this myself last year, when I was
finishing a journey at Stratford - leaving the Jubilee line's then
extant 'internal gateline' I proceeded to touch on every standalone
validator at Stratford I could find (NLL platforms, DLR platform
entrance, Central line platforms) before exiting the main gate line -
'twas no problem. I did the same when I re-entered Stratford, and when
I left my destination station (somewhere central on the Jubilee I
think, Waterloo perhaps, but it's irrelevant) again it didn't lead to
any issues.

As ever, I find it a bit awkward discussing such things as I'm not
keen on flagging x,y or z up - but it's rather hard to discuss the
system without mentioning them. (It was around this point in a not
dissimilar previous thread where Tom Anderson marked me down as a
former Home Secretary!)

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 06:35:18 -0700 (PDT)
Mizter T wrote:
As ever, I find it a bit awkward discussing such things as I'm not
keen on flagging x,y or z up

Why not?

B2003

On 13 Apr, 13:52, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 13, 1:25*pm, MIG wrote:





On 13 Apr, 13:06, Mizter T wrote:

On Apr 13, 12:58*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

By the by, FWIW I successfully used a pink interchange validator to
start a journey at Highbury & Islington [...snip]

Going back to the original yellow 'interchange validators' having thought it
through again. *With extension to the NR routes they do actually become a
major PAYG loophole don't they. Your previous suggestions about a 'soft
exit' cover the situation. Transfer from LU onto SWT at Wimbledon with a
touch on an interchange validator and the system will treat that as your
exit - if you then don't touch out on exit at an ungated station further
down the line *you've saved a few zones. *So perhaps most of them will be
removed...

Yeah, you see where I'm coming from on that point.

But is it really any different from any other situation of travelling
without a valid ticket? *If you were determined to use that kind of
"loophole"*, you could still touch at the wide gate.

What do you mean by that - a manual side gate with an reader next to
it? In which case I suspect that might not work - I suspect the
journey may be closed, albeit with the option of it being re-opened by
passing back through a gate (either LU or NR), or possibly even
touching on a reader next to a manual side gate again, but in any case
the journey would then need final closure at the far end.



*It's not really a loophole, because it's simply travelling without a
ticket and, if you are gripped, you pays the price.

No - as Boltar correctly says, it's a legitimately valid ticket as the
journey remains open.

If that's how it works. I've always thought of the validators at
London Bridge and similar to be for interchange between Oyster and non-
Oyster (or vice versa).

Why would they have been put there for validation of an ongoing Oyster
journey? Surely they were for starting or finishing a central London
Thameslink journey and finishing or starting an NR ticketed journey?

I believe you that they do leave a journey open, but I can't
understand why they should. And how does it work on the DLR?

If you started a DLR journey at Greenwich, touched out at Pudding
Basin, then continued to an ungated NR station on the way to Harold
Wood, would that be an open journey? Would it be different if you
touched out at Bow Church (OSI)?

On 13 Apr, 14:35, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 13, 2:05*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:





Mizter T wrote:

On Apr 13, 1:45 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Others might be able to explain better.

Not sure I've got the energy to invent the requisite terminology at
the moment!

The Oyster card is essentially left in an ambiguous state after
touching on a validator that's configured for (what I've called)
'interchange mode' - the journey may have finished, the journey might
be continuing - if it continues and is inspected, there's no problem
as it is correctly validated. If the journey doesn't continue, the
potential for a continuing journey eventually times out.

I'll store that away - it's as good an explanation as any of how I think it
works (or worked!)...

It does kinda make my brain hurt I admit, trying to fit it all
together and then explain it in a way that does actually makes some
sense!

It's not stuff that should concern the normal passenger though (at
least that's the theory). Touching on a validator *within a paid-area*
shouldn't matter - and I did this myself last year, when I was
finishing a journey at Stratford - leaving the Jubilee line's then
extant 'internal gateline' I proceeded to touch on every standalone
validator at Stratford I could find (NLL platforms, DLR platform
entrance, Central line platforms) before exiting the main gate line -
'twas no problem. I did the same when I re-entered Stratford, and when
I left my destination station (somewhere central on the Jubilee I
think, Waterloo perhaps, but it's irrelevant) again it didn't lead to
any issues.

OK, I see what you are getting at, but I had always assumed that this
was dealt with by programming for ignoring a double touch at the same
station, rather than leaving the journey open to continue to somewhere
else an hour later.

That is, it wouldn't create loads of journeys from Stratford to
Stratford, as long as you only exited at Stratford.

But I infer from what you say that the journey might be left open so
as not to penalise people who feel compelled to touch every validator
they see for fear of being penalised for not touching, if they are
going from, say, DLR to Mile End.

London Bridge would have been different anyway. When it was set up,
you wouldn't have been able to continue by PAYG to anywhere from
Thameslink without going through a barrier.




As ever, I find it a bit awkward discussing such things as I'm not
keen on flagging x,y or z up - but it's rather hard to discuss the
system without mentioning them. (It was around this point in a not
dissimilar previous thread where Tom Anderson marked me down as a
former Home Secretary!)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...


You've reminded me that I was reading a thread in a rail forum a couple of
days ago where someone was adamant that all the platform interchange
validators had been switched off at London Bridge as soon as PAYG went
live on NR.

The main thrust of that discussion was someone asking how he should
correctly use PAYG to commence a journey, having travelled as far as
'London Terminals' with a paper ticket from somewhere like Portsmouth.

If they really have decided to switch off platform (or paid side)
'interchange validators' as a matter of policy, such passengers from
outside the zones wishing to change to PAYG seem to have little option but
to exit using their paper ticket and re-enter using PAYG. Is this really
the current situation - and is it reasonable?

I think the answers are Yes and No. I tend to decide in advance how I'm
going to pay for my journey. Until recently Southern have been offering
Super Off Peak discounted travelcards from Brighton for £8.35, so I've
bought these and kept the Oyster card in my pocket. They're now offering
discounted London Terminals return tickets from Brighton for £7.45 so I'm
able to work with those + Oyster.

The only problem likely to hit me is with changing from paper to Oyster on
the Thameslink route. I tend to do one of the following:

1. for destinations near Farringdon: use City Thameslink and walk the extra
distance.

2. for destinations near Kings X: use Southern to Victoria and the Victoria
line, which is usually faster anyway.

DAS