On 08/06/2010 14:22, Ian wrote:
"Bevan wrote in message
...


On 07/06/2010 21:41, Brian Robertson wrote:
Graham Harrison wrote:
I don't use my Senior Pass a lot (we don't have that many buses
round
here in rural Somerset) but when I do I get issued with a ticket.
I
was in London at the weekend and the drivers there were happy to
have
me simply show it to them - didn't even have to place it on the
Oyster reader. Was that correct? How do London organise the
funding?

Oh God, you'll start that old nutter from Preston off!

Anyway, it runs like this in Manchester at least. In the south of
Greater
Manchester Stagecoach issue a ticket. In the north, First don't.
The
operators seem to have an agrement with the PTE where an average
fare is
agreed for an average number of passengers using the passes. At no
time do
the drivers of either company have to record a boarding or
destination
stage.


For a while, First Manchester did issue tickets, but stopped doing
so - I think someone decided it was causing delays to services by
issuing lots of zero fare tickets.

Practice varies even within the same group. Arriva's Bolton depot
even asks your destination, which the driver enters into his machine
and this is shown on the ticket. Some depots issue tickets, but do
not ask your destination, and certain depots don't issue any tickets
at all - the driver just presses a button on the ticket machine.

To me it seems a waste of money to print lots of zero value tickets
when you also have a bus pass to show to that rarity - a bus ticket
travelling inspector.

Bevan

Depends on the agreement with the local authority???? After all, thay
are picking up the tab (or are supposed to be)....

In Reading, there seems to be two types of OAP free ticket issued -
whether the OAP has a "local" or an "out-of-town" pass.... in
Hampshire, IFAICS, a ticket is issued, and when the drivers module is
downloaded at the end of the day, the bus co has some idea of how many
OAP passes have been carried on each journey. Must help in the
planning, and in the accounting for repayment from LA....

If issuing a "zero value" ticket IS important, from the bus co's point
of view, then they WILL require the Road Inspectors to check that such
tickets are being issued. And RIs DO exist.


Any chance that Oyster could used on other bus networks in the country?

On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 22:10:25 +0100, "
wrote:

How is information from an Oyster card relayed when you tap in on a bus?
If you are on pay as you go, for example, and change busses, then the
indicator on the second bus already shows that previous fare was
deducted from the first bus.

When a valid transaction is made the relevant info is updated on the
card itself and also recorded in the bus ticket machine (or validator or
ticket gate on rail or tram systems). The collected data is sent to the
central system for accounting, usage and card transaction history
purposes on rail and tram networks. For buses it is collected from the
driver module when the driver completes his shift and signs off at the
garage.

The next time you use the card it is read by the next Oyster enabled
device and depending on the rules you may or may not need to pay extra
(e.g. in zone or you've reached your daily cap). None of this is
particularly difficult.

There is not any real time Oyster data transmission from buses to the
centre or bus to bus. Obviously buses are in contact with the network
control via radio and for I-Bus service management but I don't believe
the system has sufficient capacity to provide secure financial
transaction data transmission.
--
Paul C

On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 22:11:33 +0100, "
wrote:

Any chance that Oyster could used on other bus networks in the country?

Very unlikely as the government has insisted that ITSO standards will
apply everywhere else in the UK. It is funding the work to allow the
Oyster system to read and process ITSO standard smartcards. In other
parts of the country operators, councils or ITA (Integrated Transport
Authorities - formerly PTEs) can choose to buy equipment that is
compatible with the ITSO suite of standards and in theory
interoperability should result. There is no funding to make Oyster
cards readable on buses in Birmingham or Nottingham.

I am a long way from being an expert on ITSO - I have yet to summon the
enthusiasm to read hundreds of pages of information - but the key seems
to lie in ensuring that the commercial ticket products are correctly
defined and that operators agree common product definitions and
programme their kit to recognise such things. I have yet to understand
where the "industry body / bodies" are going to come from to ensure that
a smartcard issued in Tyne in Wear by Go Ahead can also work on TfL
services, on Southern trains to Brighton and then a Brighton and Hove
bus. That example has 3 out of the 4 operators within the Go Ahead group
where there are definite commitments to do something but how are Go
Ahead going to make it work and then agree something with TfL?

I would dearly love to have a smartcard that could work nationally on
rail and on bus - I just fear it is one heck of a long way away from
fruition. I'd not be surprised to see funding for ITSO development get
killed in the spending review process on the basis that councils can do
it locally or else the bus groups will do it privately.
--
Paul C

On 8 June, 22:30, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 22:11:33 +0100, "

wrote:
Any chance that Oyster could used on other bus networks in the country?

Very unlikely as the government has insisted that ITSO standards will
apply everywhere else in the UK. It is funding the work to allow the
Oyster system to read and process ITSO standard smartcards. *In other
parts of the country operators, councils or ITA (Integrated Transport
Authorities - formerly PTEs) can choose to buy equipment that is
compatible with the ITSO suite of standards and in theory
interoperability should result. * *There is no funding to make Oyster
cards readable on buses in Birmingham or Nottingham.

I am a long way from being an expert on ITSO - I have yet to summon the
enthusiasm to read hundreds of pages of information - but the key seems
to lie in ensuring that the commercial ticket products are correctly
defined and that operators agree common product definitions and
programme their kit to recognise such things. * I have yet to understand
where the "industry body / bodies" are going to come from to ensure that
a smartcard issued in Tyne in Wear by Go Ahead can also work on TfL
services, on Southern trains to Brighton and then a Brighton and Hove
bus. That example has 3 out of the 4 operators within the Go Ahead group
where there are definite commitments to do something but how are Go
Ahead going to make it work and then agree something with TfL?

I would dearly love to have a smartcard that could work nationally on
rail and on bus - I just fear it is one heck of a long way away from
fruition. *I'd not be surprised to see funding for ITSO development get
killed in the spending review process on the basis that councils can do
it locally or else the bus groups will do it privately.
--
Paul C

now for my two penn'orth.

Here in Scotland we have an ITSO-compliant contactless smartcard for
use on public transport if disabled or over 60, until recently First
Glasgow drivers didn't have to ask you where you planned to alight,but
as of the past few months they do. McColl's of Dumbarton on the other
hand always needed to know where you were getting off, even before the
smartcards.

In Portsmouth, the two major operators (First Hants & Dorset and
Stagecoach) issue zero fare tickets to those travelling on OAP /
Disabled passes, but seemingly without taking into account the origin
or destination of the journey in question. I'm no expert on these
things, but I can only imagine that it must cause nightmares for the
company accountants when billing the council for 'lost' revenue.

Passengers holding multi-journey tickets are not issued with a
separate ticket for each journey, but a button is pressed on the
machine to account for their presence, as are those offering the
return portion of a return ticket. Whether there are separate buttons
for day returns, weekly/monthly/annual seasons, scholars passes etc,
I'm not sure.

Regards,

Matt

"Matt J Forbes" wrote in message
...
In Portsmouth, the two major operators (First Hants & Dorset and
Stagecoach) issue zero fare tickets to those travelling on OAP /
Disabled passes, but seemingly without taking into account the
origin
or destination of the journey in question. I'm no expert on these
things, but I can only imagine that it must cause nightmares for the
company accountants when billing the council for 'lost' revenue.

The boarding point of the journey is what matters, as that determines
which Local Authority will pick up the tab, and the ticket machine
will already be set to the boarding stage.

Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the
0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their
OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas.

In Southampton, OAPs could use their pass from 0900.

So, at 0910, a Southampton OAP could get on a bus to, say, Fareham,
and use it IF THEY boarded IN Southampton.
If their friend - also lholding a Southampton pass - got on the same
bus at the first stop after the bus had crossed the boundary into
Eastleigh, (but *still before 0930*), then their friend could NOT use
their OAP pass.....

Certain LA's (to the west of Southampton) allowed OAP travel at any
time... the OAP could get IN to Southampton, but not change onto
another bus to continue eastwards unless it was after 0930. Couldn't
get home again, either, until after 0930.

Unless, of course, they were willing to pay. And many are not willing
to pay ANYTHING.... they would rather wait two hours than pay, say,
£1.60 or so, to travel to a point from which they CAN travel onwards
without further charge..... If you said to me, "I want you to stand
there for two hours, for which I will pay you £1.60", I, and no doubt
many other people, would tell you where to go!!!


Passengers holding multi-journey tickets are not issued with a
separate ticket for each journey, but a button is pressed on the
machine to account for their presence, as are those offering the
return portion of a return ticket. Whether there are separate
buttons
for day returns, weekly/monthly/annual seasons, scholars passes etc,
I'm not sure.

Sometimes they are, depends on the operator's policy.


Regards,

Matt

and the ticket machine
will already be set to the boarding stage.

Duh - of course it will be. Why didn't that occur to me?!

M

In message , Ian
writes
If you said to me, "I want you to stand
there for two hours, for which I will pay you £1.60", I, and no doubt
many other people, would tell you where to go!!!
I expect you would, but were you financially inactive, as are most
pensioners like myself, things are very different. For £1.79 you can
buy scrambled eggs on toast at Morrisson's it's not just a wait but a
chance to get a meal inside of you.
--
Clive

Ian wrote

Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the

0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their
OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas.

The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the
principle.

Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that
LA's AREA.

Thus in London Freedom Pass and all English Pass holders can use their
passes at any time on TfL buses when they board WITHIN the London AREA.

So a Freedom or any English passholder can board a TfL bus in Kingston
to go to Dorking at 08:00 but once past Chessington no one can get on
for a free ride until after 09:00 since some Surrey District would have
to pay. Whether they can use a (non-TfL) bus to Guildford before 09:00
they don't say.

In Southampton, OAPs could use their pass from 0900.

So, at 0910, a Southampton OAP could get on a bus to, say, Fareham,
and use it IF THEY boarded IN Southampton.
If their friend - also lholding a Southampton pass - got on the same
bus at the first stop after the bus had crossed the boundary into
Eastleigh, (but *still before 0930*), then their friend could NOT use

their OAP pass.....

Certain LA's (to the west of Southampton) allowed OAP travel at any
time... the OAP could get IN to Southampton, but not change onto
another bus to continue eastwards unless it was after 0930. Couldn't

get home again, either, until after 0930.


--
Mike D

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01cb0994$b7750360$LocalHost@default...
Ian wrote

Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before
the

0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their
OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas.

The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the
principle.

beg to differ.... what you are (correctly) demonstarting is that
different LAs have different ules. And London has a completely
different set of rules.

Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that
LA's AREA.

Thus in London Freedom Pass and all English Pass holders can use
their
passes at any time on TfL buses when they board WITHIN the London
AREA.

So a Freedom or any English passholder can board a TfL bus in
Kingston
to go to Dorking at 08:00 but once past Chessington no one can get
on
for a free ride until after 09:00 since some Surrey District would
have
to pay. Whether they can use a (non-TfL) bus to Guildford before
09:00
they don't say.

In Southampton, OAPs could use their pass from 0900.

So, at 0910, a Southampton OAP could get on a bus to, say, Fareham,
and use it IF THEY boarded IN Southampton.
If their friend - also lholding a Southampton pass - got on the
same
bus at the first stop after the bus had crossed the boundary into
Eastleigh, (but *still before 0930*), then their friend could NOT
use

their OAP pass.....

Certain LA's (to the west of Southampton) allowed OAP travel at any
time... the OAP could get IN to Southampton, but not change onto
another bus to continue eastwards unless it was after 0930.
Couldn't

get home again, either, until after 0930.


--
Mike D