On 31/10/2011 15:39, Mortimer wrote:

[2] I had a very bad experience in an auto Ford Focus hire car on a trip
from work, which decided that it wouldn't go faster than 50 mph: I could
have 50 in any of 4th, 3rd or 2nd gear depending on how much throttle I
gave it, but it was very reluctant to stay in top gear and let me go any
faster.

You've mentioned this car several times. While I'm not as gung-ho about
autos as some on this group, and have never owned one, I've never had
problems driving them. I think it's about time you accepted that the car
was probably broken in some way. One broken car is not representative of
the whole population.

In message , Richard J.
wrote:
The green arrow only gives you authority to move in that direction.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ading/light-si
gnals-and-warning-lights/made

and scroll down to paragraph 36.

There are some junctions where traffic gets a green arrow in one
direction first, then later a full green.

The green arrow should be accompanied by a red (or amber or red+amber)
in that case.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In message , Nick
Finnigan wrote:
time. So, is the new signage legal? it seems like a backward step to me.
They are legal. In principle you are disobeying the lights by turning.
The lack of signs showing the prohibitions is a very good defence.

I doubt it very much. You'd have to show that the sign showing the
prohibition was part of the statutory requirement, and I can't see any
wording suggesting that. The green arrow *is* the prohibition.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In message , Roland Perry
wrote:
Near where I live there's an old set of traffic lights with three lanes
for left, right and ahead, which has the same directional control of
lane markings and green arrows, but no "forced left/right" signs (by
which I assume you mean the blue arrows).

You could argue that you're not forced to use the lanes for any given
direction. So long as a leftwards arrow is lit and you drive with
appropriate care, you can turn left from any lane.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In message , at 21:50:53 on Mon, 31
Oct 2011, Clive D. W. Feather remarked:
Near where I live there's an old set of traffic lights with three
lanes for left, right and ahead, which has the same directional
control of lane markings and green arrows, but no "forced left/right"
signs (by which I assume you mean the blue arrows).

You could argue that you're not forced to use the lanes for any given
direction. So long as a leftwards arrow is lit and you drive with
appropriate care, you can turn left from any lane.

Even if that means passing a red light (because the middle lane in
question isn't yet showing a "straight ahead" green arrow)?
--
Roland Perry

On 2011\10\31 21:50, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In message , Roland Perry
wrote:
Near where I live there's an old set of traffic lights with three
lanes for left, right and ahead, which has the same directional
control of lane markings and green arrows, but no "forced left/right"
signs (by which I assume you mean the blue arrows).

You could argue that you're not forced to use the lanes for any given
direction. So long as a leftwards arrow is lit and you drive with
appropriate care, you can turn left from any lane.

Under the new method, if you're approaching a crossroads where one turn
is banned, but you don't know whether it's the left or right which is
banned, and the road splits in two just before the lights, and both
branches are showing a red light, how can you work out which side to use
to go forward? I suppose the answer is "use the lane markings", but in
snow or even in night-time rain these can be hard to see.

On 31/10/2011 22:12, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2011\10\31 21:50, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In message , Roland Perry
wrote:
Near where I live there's an old set of traffic lights with three
lanes for left, right and ahead, which has the same directional
control of lane markings and green arrows, but no "forced left/right"
signs (by which I assume you mean the blue arrows).

You could argue that you're not forced to use the lanes for any given
direction. So long as a leftwards arrow is lit and you drive with
appropriate care, you can turn left from any lane.

Under the new method, if you're approaching a crossroads where one turn
is banned, but you don't know whether it's the left or right which is
banned, and the road splits in two just before the lights, and both
branches are showing a red light, how can you work out which side to use
to go forward? I suppose the answer is "use the lane markings", but in
snow or even in night-time rain these can be hard to see.

If one turn is banned, then there is a traffic order in place and there
will be a sign to indicate that. With that, it should be obvious which
of the two lanes to choose.

Colin Bignell

On 2011\11\01 00:44, Nightjar wrote:
On 31/10/2011 22:12, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2011\10\31 21:50, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In message , Roland Perry
wrote:
Near where I live there's an old set of traffic lights with three
lanes for left, right and ahead, which has the same directional
control of lane markings and green arrows, but no "forced left/right"
signs (by which I assume you mean the blue arrows).

You could argue that you're not forced to use the lanes for any given
direction. So long as a leftwards arrow is lit and you drive with
appropriate care, you can turn left from any lane.

Under the new method, if you're approaching a crossroads where one turn
is banned, but you don't know whether it's the left or right which is
banned, and the road splits in two just before the lights, and both
branches are showing a red light, how can you work out which side to use
to go forward? I suppose the answer is "use the lane markings", but in
snow or even in night-time rain these can be hard to see.

If one turn is banned, then there is a traffic order in place and there
will be a sign to indicate that. With that, it should be obvious which
of the two lanes to choose.

No. The old rules would mean that the light in the left side slip would
have a blue left arrow or a blue forward arrow, and the right side slip
would have a blue forward arrow or a blue right arrow. Under the new
rules, neither slip would have any blue arrow at all, and you couldn't
tell which slip was for forward until the green arrows came on.

On 01/11/2011 06:26, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2011\11\01 00:44, Nightjar wrote:
On 31/10/2011 22:12, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2011\10\31 21:50, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In message , Roland Perry
wrote:
Near where I live there's an old set of traffic lights with three
lanes for left, right and ahead, which has the same directional
control of lane markings and green arrows, but no "forced left/right"
signs (by which I assume you mean the blue arrows).

You could argue that you're not forced to use the lanes for any given
direction. So long as a leftwards arrow is lit and you drive with
appropriate care, you can turn left from any lane.

Under the new method, if you're approaching a crossroads where one turn
is banned, but you don't know whether it's the left or right which is
banned, and the road splits in two just before the lights, and both
branches are showing a red light, how can you work out which side to use
to go forward? I suppose the answer is "use the lane markings", but in
snow or even in night-time rain these can be hard to see.

If one turn is banned, then there is a traffic order in place and there
will be a sign to indicate that. With that, it should be obvious which
of the two lanes to choose.

No. The old rules would mean that the light in the left side slip would
have a blue left arrow or a blue forward arrow, and the right side slip
would have a blue forward arrow or a blue right arrow. Under the new
rules, neither slip would have any blue arrow at all, and you couldn't
tell which slip was for forward until the green arrows came on.

There are no 'new rules'. The positioning and use of signs is described
in detail the Traffic Signs Manual, parts of which were first published
nearly 40 years ago, and the advice has only changed in detail for most
of that time. The use of regulatory (round) signs is further controlled
by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, the current
version of which was issued in 2002, although it has its basis in the
Warboys Report of 1963.

The white on blue round directional arrow sign and the black and white
in a red circle turn prohibited signs can only be used if a traffic
order is in place. A traffic order would apply to the whole junction,
not to individual lanes within that junction. Therefore, neither type of
sign can be used if there is no restriction on turning at the junction,
even if it is not correct to turn in a particular direction from a
particular lane.

At a junction where there is no restriction on turning, but there are
dedicated turn lanes, the correct sign to use, in addition to road
markings and green arrows in the lights, would be to diagram 877 of the
Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...chedule/4/made

That gives drivers warning well in advance of the junction as to which
lane they need to be in when they get there, so they do not need last
minute signs at the junction itself.

Colin Bignell

On 2011\11\01 08:26, Nightjar wrote:
On 01/11/2011 06:26, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2011\11\01 00:44, Nightjar wrote:
On 31/10/2011 22:12, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2011\10\31 21:50, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In message , Roland Perry
wrote:
Near where I live there's an old set of traffic lights with three
lanes for left, right and ahead, which has the same directional
control of lane markings and green arrows, but no "forced left/right"
signs (by which I assume you mean the blue arrows).

You could argue that you're not forced to use the lanes for any given
direction. So long as a leftwards arrow is lit and you drive with
appropriate care, you can turn left from any lane.

Under the new method, if you're approaching a crossroads where one turn
is banned, but you don't know whether it's the left or right which is
banned, and the road splits in two just before the lights, and both
branches are showing a red light, how can you work out which side to
use
to go forward? I suppose the answer is "use the lane markings", but in
snow or even in night-time rain these can be hard to see.

If one turn is banned, then there is a traffic order in place and there
will be a sign to indicate that. With that, it should be obvious which
of the two lanes to choose.

No. The old rules would mean that the light in the left side slip would
have a blue left arrow or a blue forward arrow, and the right side slip
would have a blue forward arrow or a blue right arrow. Under the new
rules, neither slip would have any blue arrow at all, and you couldn't
tell which slip was for forward until the green arrows came on.

There are no 'new rules'. The positioning and use of signs is described
in detail the Traffic Signs Manual, parts of which were first published
nearly 40 years ago, and the advice has only changed in detail for most
of that time. The use of regulatory (round) signs is further controlled
by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, the current
version of which was issued in 2002, although it has its basis in the
Warboys Report of 1963.

The white on blue round directional arrow sign and the black and white
in a red circle turn prohibited signs can only be used if a traffic
order is in place. A traffic order would apply to the whole junction,
not to individual lanes within that junction. Therefore, neither type of
sign can be used if there is no restriction on turning at the junction,
even if it is not correct to turn in a particular direction from a
particular lane.

At a junction where there is no restriction on turning, but there are
dedicated turn lanes, the correct sign to use, in addition to road
markings and green arrows in the lights, would be to diagram 877 of the
Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...chedule/4/made

That gives drivers warning well in advance of the junction as to which
lane they need to be in when they get there, so they do not need last
minute signs at the junction itself.

Thanks. Does that mean that when there is a turning left slip, and the
main carriageway has a banned left turn sign, that this sign has no
legal force because it is not backed by a traffic order, and it is legal
for you to ignore the banned left turn sign and turn left from the main
carriageway, even though you may be driving over a pedestrian crossing
which is in the green man phase?