On 11 Jan 2004 07:43:55 -0800, (Steph Davies) wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote in message . ..

Recent [TfL Board Minutes] agendas have included draft business
plans, bus strategic plans, fares policy etc. There is the 2004 Business
Plan which lays out a range of (funding and plan) options including
extending LUL fares to all TOC services within the zonal area so we have
full integration - all for £10m pa.

I really don't like the idea of extending LUL fares to all TOC
services within the zonal area. And I'm confused as to how it would
/cost/ £10m pa. It might /generate/ an extra £10m pa though.

LUL fares are a rip-off. A weekly point-to-point season from my Z2
home station to "London Terminals" is £7.70. Obviously it is not
valid for use on tubes or buses or for any other rail journeys but it
works out very cheap for me. I'd much rather buy that basic ticket
and top-up with cash fares where necessary than spend £19-odd on a Z12
weekly Travelcard. However, the beauty of the current system is that
I can choose to buy the more expensive ticket if it suits my travel
pattern better; I'm not forced to.

but I'm not referring to season tickets. I'm talking about single and
return fares and unless I've missed something recently TOC fares have
always been higher than the equivalent LUL fare. Therefore integrated
fares would have the effect of lowering prices for most people and would
remove the usual summation effect of the LUL price and TOC price being
added together when people make a journey that involves interchange - eg
Oxford Circus to East Croydon via Victoria. The fact that income would
fall for the TOCs means there is a cost to TfL from lowering the fares.
TOCs have bid on the basis of an income stream assuming the old fares
regime - those who propose the change have to fund any revenue loss.

I've not read anything about short distance point to point seasons being
affected by the proposal. I understand your particular example and can
see why you would prefer the flexibility to keep the current
arrangement. Such cases would have to be considered to avoid undue
hardship being caused - something the statutory passenger bodies would
be concerned about.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Steph Davies wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote in message . ..

Recent [TfL Board Minutes] agendas have included draft business
plans, bus strategic plans, fares policy etc. There is the 2004 Business
Plan which lays out a range of (funding and plan) options including
extending LUL fares to all TOC services within the zonal area so we have
full integration - all for £10m pa.


I really don't like the idea of extending LUL fares to all TOC
services within the zonal area. And I'm confused as to how it would
/cost/ £10m pa. It might /generate/ an extra £10m pa though.

LUL fares are a rip-off. A weekly point-to-point season from my Z2
home station to "London Terminals" is £7.70. Obviously it is not
valid for use on tubes or buses or for any other rail journeys but it
works out very cheap for me. I'd much rather buy that basic ticket
and top-up with cash fares where necessary than spend £19-odd on a Z12
weekly Travelcard. However, the beauty of the current system is that
I can choose to buy the more expensive ticket if it suits my travel
pattern better; I'm not forced to.

But you have to decide before travelling whether you'd be better off
with a rail season, a period Travelcard, or a combination of daily
tickets. I am hoping for (eventually!) a capping system on Oyster which
can work over a period basis e.g. working out at the end of the month
what ticket or tickets would be the best value for you, rather than
having to guess at the beginning of the month what your travel plans
might be.

Mark

--
Mark Etherington

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:41:46 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

but I'm not referring to season tickets. I'm talking about single and
return fares and unless I've missed something recently TOC fares have
always been higher than the equivalent LUL fare.

Off peak return fares on National Rail are usually cheaper than tube
fares because tube returns are still twice the single, whereas TOC off
peak day returns are usually almost not much more than a peak single.

Examples:

East Croydon to London Terminals
3.60 Standard Day Single
4.70 Cheap Day Return
6.00 Standard Day Return

Zone 5 to Zone 1 tube fa
3.50 Single
7.00 Return
(5.40 Off Peak Day Travelcard)

East Croydon to Clapham Junction
3.10 Standard Day Single
3.60 Cheap Day Return
5.00 Standard Day Return

Zone 5 to Zone 2 tube fa
2.20 Single
4.40 Return
(3.80 Off Peak Day Travelcard)

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:53:17 +0000, Mark Etherington wrote:

But you have to decide before travelling whether you'd be better off
with a rail season, a period Travelcard, or a combination of daily
tickets. I am hoping for (eventually!) a capping system on Oyster which
can work over a period basis e.g. working out at the end of the month
what ticket or tickets would be the best value for you, rather than
having to guess at the beginning of the month what your travel plans
might be.

Hmm. I still think there needs to be a radical change to the fares
structure to take account of this kind of thing. The paper fares
structure makes sense on paper; there needs to be something different that
makes sense for smartcard use. Otherwise, you're introducing unnecessary
complication.

Neil

In article , (John
Haines) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
In article ,
(John Haines) wrote:

In article , Paul
Corfield wrote:

Pre-Pay is a new product and has not (IMO) settled down. The
launch was always going to be phased and I think you will
continue to see questions and issues being raised for a number of
months until people gain confidence in using it, staff awareness
and training improves and the newer features are introduced. It
will take time to settle down.


Try it - you *might* like it.

From the postings here it seems that some of the consequences of
this settling down period are increased hassle and expense for some
users even to the point of being refused travel. This is very
off-putting. Does TfL have a suitably responsive system for
learning from these issues that users can also gain some recompense
from?

A trial or development period should not be at the expense of the
paying user.

John Haines


I don't have all the posts, but from the original post in the Fare
Dodging Consequences topic, it seems that there was nothing wrong
with the system the the poster's case. He was fraudulently
travelling in zone one when he only had a zone two card and the
system correctly identified this and charged the person accordingly.
In which case the system was working correctly.

If a person fraudulently travelled in the same way with only a zone
two ticket, as the original poster said that he did regularly, then
that person would be fined if caught by a revenue inspector. Perhaps
the Oyster system can be amended to detect fraud and automatically
deduct a fine as well, with a court referral after X times

Too many people deliberately avoid paying their fare / correct fare
(and seem proud of the fact that they've fiddled something) then
complain when they get caught.

My comments were nothing to do with the Fare Dodging thread. They
relate directly to the paragraph I quoted and to experiences of
legitimate users reported elsewhere.

As far as fare dodging goes, I agree with your comments entirely.

John Haines


Sorry, I seem to have got the posts mixed up - I deleted previous postings
as part of a tidy up.

Roger

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:36:20 -0000, "Ben and Michiyo"
wrote:

You should only swipe once for going in and once going out. If you can not
make sure you are only charged for one journey and if not ring the
oystercard helpline to be refunded.


That isn't possible though. You have to swipe in as you enter the DLR
(or you could get caught for not having a valid ticket); the
instructions say you should swipe out as you leae the DLR; and then
you must swipe in as you get on the tube (to open the gates).

It shouldn't be the cardholders resposibility to phone up to get
refunded.

The process of Station evacuation has not been resolved and staff have yet
to be informed what to do.

Another flaw in the "charge full fare" policy? I don't know how they
could do it without charging some people incorrectly if they don't
swipe in and out (if they had closed gates at al stations and no
"holes" it would be OK) but is charging the maximum fare a fair way to
do it - *very* few people would actually make a journey on prepay
which would actually cost the maximum fare so maybe it would be better
to charge a more typical fare?

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:41:59 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Paul Corfield wrote:

There are further big changes proposed with a big increase in
interavailability with National Rail routes - this being partly linked
to the development of the Overground Network.

Can we read about these changes, and this development, anywhere?

if you go to the TfL Website Home page, then About TfL and then find the
TFL Board Minutes section.

He

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/abt_board.shtml

And for business plans, he

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/reports_li...business.shtml

Annual reports:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/reports_library_annual.shtml

Recent agendas have included draft business plans, bus strategic plans,
fares policy etc. There is the 2004 Business Plan which lays out a range
of (funding and plan) options including extending LUL fares to all TOC
services within the zonal area so we have full integration - all for
£10m pa. There is also stuff about extending Pre-Pay and funding mods to
TOC ticket machines and gates to allow it to work.

Select the pdf files as you get all the papers there - be warned the
files are sometimes very big but I find it interesting stuff.

The devil is in the details!

Thanks,
tom

--
eviscerated by obfuscation

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:32:41 +0000, Richard Adamfi
wrote:

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:41:46 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:
but I'm not referring to season tickets. I'm talking about single and
return fares and unless I've missed something recently TOC fares have
always been higher than the equivalent LUL fare.

Off peak return fares on National Rail are usually cheaper than tube
fares because tube returns are still twice the single, whereas TOC off
peak day returns are usually almost not much more than a peak single.

Factor in new Oyster Pre-Pay fares and things get vey odd for
(e.g.) Walthamstow Central to London Terminals:

NR weekdays & W/O a Rail Card:
2.40 Standard Day Single
3.00 Cheap Day Return
3.80 Standard Day Return

Tube Zone 3 to Zone 1:
2.50 Single
5.00 Return
(4.70 Off Peak Day Travelcard)

Oyster Pre-Pay Weekend fares:
1.80 Single
3.60 Return

WAGN weekends with Rail Card:
1.60 Standard Day Single
2.00 Cheap Day Return
2.50 Standard Day Return

From non-season ticket holders, makes life very confusing!


Cheers,

Jason.