|
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On Dec 30, 6:09*am, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 29.12.2011 22:25, schrieb The Real Doctor: On 29/12/11 21:05, Lüko Willms wrote: The thing is that railway workers are workers, and not so easily purged as all the professors at the university and journalists in the media. And if there is one group who should know about purging, it's apologists for Stalinism.[1] * *Whatever; the purge in the ex-GDR was of a magnitude which exceeded everything ever experienced under the rule of a stalinist burocrady. There is something especially poisonous about Stalinists, still attempting to minimise his crimes so long after Khrushchev's secret speech, isn't there? Are you seriously saying that there was mass- killings and show-trials in Germany post-unification on a scale to dwarf the killings in 1937-8? ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 30.12.2011 19:42, schrieb Hans-Joachim Zierke:
Please name the "German equivalent of TUPE". Betriebsübergang. BGB Paragraph 613a: http://dejure.org/gesetze/BGB/613a.html MfG, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 30.12.2011 19:08, schrieb Neil Williams:
That is what is happening in the Thatcherized Britain, but not in Germany. TUPE is not Thatcherite, quite the opposite. I know, having the franchise changes in the railways is one thing her politics could not smash. Is there no German equivalent? Yes, the issue is called "Betriebsübergang", and BGB (Civil code) paragraph 613a describes the rights of workers under such a change. The english translation of BGB gives "Rights and duties in the case of transfer of business" as the title of that section: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_bgb/englisch_bgb.html#p2428 But the German rulers have conceived the tendering of transit operations more to the way you would chose your paperhanger or construction company or the janitor or office cleaning company: you call another service provider who brings his own personnel and tools and machinery. In the case of railway operations, bringing their own engineers, locomotives and other rolling stock, guards, etc etc. (There are some exceptions, where the Land or the designated public transit authority is the owner of the rolling stock, in order to "facilite competition"). To the difference of the British rail privatization, this does very well allow to drive wages down. I guess the German capitalist politicians have also thought of this when they decided their way of railway privatisation: maintaining the DB AG as a "national champion" who could become an international "player" (today effectively the 200 pound gorilla in the European transport market), while introducing a tendering system which allows upstarts to win market share from the "incumbent" mainly by paying lower wages, and by this token putting pressure on the wages at DB and other (former) public transport companies. A number of municipal transit companies (e.g. the Frankfurt/Main one, the one of Berlin, and others) have set up a low wage bus company where bus drivers are paid 30% less than the ones employed directly according to the old public sector collective bargaining contracts. To add insult to injury, in most cases Social-Democrats and trade union burocrats have voted for such moves, in order to "save the public company" which would otherwise lose out completely to the private competitors from Veolia etc with their lower wage bus drivers. Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 30.12.2011 19:58, schrieb ian batten:
There is something especially poisonous about Stalinists, still attempting to minimise his crimes so long after Khrushchev's secret speech, isn't there? Are you seriously saying that there was mass- killings and show-trials in Germany post-unification on a scale to dwarf the killings in 1937-8? If you could read or even understand what you are reading, you would not ask such silly questions. Show trials were held, yes. Mass killings not, but lots of people got thrown into misery, with their old age pensions cut because of their political stance. But there are lots of German capitalist politicians who dream of using the army against their own population. In Afghanistan they have tested a terrorist attack killing 150 people by making two tank lorry explode, which were stuck in a sand bank in a middle of a river crossing, unable to move forth or back. But I can't let you blur the actual issue we are discussing he the railway workers in Berlin, whose social conquests of the past 6 decades could not be destroyed by the FRG taking over the GDR, what Herr Schnell now wants to accomplish by dissolving the current S-Bahn Berlin GmbH and making all their workers jobless. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
|
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 00:22:20 +0000 (UTC)
Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote: schrieb: People are not dumb cattle and will not just sit on a train with no information forever if they can get out and continue their journey on foot. This has happened in the UK a number of times and train operators need to take human behaviour into account when failures happen. Just expecting people to sit and wait for an indeterminate period of time and do nothing is moronic. I think that this here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRhNAql6foA qualifies for "moronic". If you listen at 0:29 it says a message from the conductor asked them to leave the train and the doors were opened onto the track, not the platform. So it wasn't the passengers fault. Unless my french language isn't as good as I thought. B2003 |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 21:51:41 +0000
Charles Ellson wrote: On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 12:31:20 +0000 (UTC), d wrote: On 29 Dec 2011 12:16:58 GMT Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote: Without the angry passengers, it might have been 1 hour. "Persons on the tracks" means, that operation can't resume, even with everything back to normal. People are not dumb cattle and will not just sit on a train with no information forever if they can get out and continue their journey on foot. So not dumb cattle but still a bit thick WRT hazard awareness ? Perhaps they are. They're going to get off though. B2003 |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 30/12/11 16:38, Lüko Willms wrote:
But you have sense of facts: you know how to avoid them like the plague. Stop it. You're killing me. And no machine gun nests needed. Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 30/12/11 21:39, Lüko Willms wrote:
Show trials were held, yes. Mass killings not Is that you defending the Gulags again? Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 31.12.2011 00:49, schrieb The Real Doctor:
Is that you defending the Gulags again? That is YOUR cup of tea. YOU are the nostalgic of colonial oppression, concentration camps and so on. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
Am 30.12.2011 23:40, schrieb d:
answering Herr Zierke: I think that this here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRhNAql6foA qualifies for "moronic". If you listen at 0:29 it says a message from the conductor asked them to leave the train and the doors were opened onto the track, not the platform. So it wasn't the passengers fault. Unless my french language isn't as good as I thought. I can confirm that your understanding is good enough. I understood the first report about the Berlin S-Bahn failure also as saying that the S-Bahn officials asked the passengers to leave the trains and walk to the next station. Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 29.12.2011 13:15, schrieb Oliver Schnell:
The Berlin light rail train system, plagued by problems for years, demonstrated today that it can, indeed get worse. Many cars have been taken out of service for all sorts of ailments, and having pruned the maintenance shops and the drivers to a bare minimum, there is no room for dealing with problems. And there have been problems galore. The Berlin S-Bahn getting "pruned" a little bit concerning staff still needs significantly more staff per passenger kilometre, passenger carried, train or seat kilometres or network length offered than any other S-Bahn system in Germany. This rotten company in Berlin should be closed. Tendering the S-Bahn The hatred which Herr Schnell displays against the ex-GDR railway workers defending their conquests of the past six decades makes him blind for the fact that the problem did not occur in the realm of the company he wants to close in order to send the workers into misery, but in the realm of DB Netz AG, the company in the DB conglomerate which is responsible for maintaining and operating the network. Analogue in Britain is Network Rail. Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 29.12.2011 13:16, schrieb Hans-Joachim Zierke:
Many people were trapped in trains stranded between stations. Angry passengers opened the doors, got out and walked the tracks to the nearest station, continuing by bus, subway, or taxi. It took about 3 hours after electricity was restored to have some sort of traffic running. Without the angry passengers, it might have been 1 hour. "Persons on the tracks" means, that operation can't resume, even with everything back to normal. This TV report says that at least in some points the railway police and the S-Bahn officials have led passengers from stranded trains to the next station. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frCzY0fzlUE Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
d schrieb: If you listen at 0:29 it says a message from the conductor asked them to leave the train and the doors were opened onto the track, not the platform. So it wasn't the passengers fault. That's one version. The other and more plausible version, which was reported back then, went like this: Passengers were asked to walk to the nearby platform, and doors released on the other side. Adventurous youth then opened the trackside doors by emergency handle, and cattle followed the leaders. I don't know which version is true. I think that there will be a report by the safety authorities, but I don't speak French. Anyway: As soon as you ask passengers to leave the train, you have to expect scenes like this, because even a well-staffed train never has enough crew for crowd control. Therefore, it's always "shutdown of traffic" as soon as there are passengers on the tracks. Hans-Joachim -- Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011 http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On Dec 30, 11:49*pm, The Real Doctor
wrote: On 30/12/11 21:39, Lüko Willms wrote: Show trials were held, yes. Mass killings not Is that you defending the Gulags again? He appears to be claiming Stalin didn't kill his political opponents. Next stop: Holocaust denial. ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On Dec 31, 7:00*am, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 31.12.2011 00:49, schrieb The Real Doctor: Is that you defending the Gulags again? * *That is YOUR cup of tea. YOU are the nostalgic of colonial oppression, concentration camps and so on. Let's be clear, in LW land: Stalin --- did he order people killed, or not? ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 31/12/11 07:00, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 31.12.2011 00:49, schrieb The Real Doctor: Is that you defending the Gulags again? That is YOUR cup of tea. YOU are the nostalgic of colonial oppression, concentration camps and so on. No I'm not. Don't be silly, Lüko. The difference between us is that I think Stalin's concentration camps were as bad as Hitler's and that Soviet colonialism in Europe was as immoral as European colonialism in Africa. Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 31.12.2011 10:49, schrieb The Real Doctor:
The difference between us is that I think Stalin's concentration camps were as bad as Hitler's and that Soviet colonialism in Europe was as immoral as European colonialism in Africa. You put that on equal terms in order to embellish the history of colonialism. You still stick to maintain as much as possible of the colonial empire of your master. Poor slave... |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 31.12.2011 09:02, schrieb ian batten:
claiming Stalin didn't kill his political opponents. Do you? |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?happen here...??
Neil Williams schrieb: TUPE is not Thatcherite, quite the opposite. Is there no German equivalent? As soon as we talk transfer of companies: Sure there is. But this is not relevant to the discussion. These rules protect you as an employee, if your bakery is taken over by another bakery. They do nothing for you, if your bakery looses the contract with the local hotel, which decides to buy the bread from a bakery in the neighbour village. Hans-Joachim -- Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011 http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?happen here...??
Am 31.12.2011 11:28, schrieb Hans-Joachim Zierke:
TUPE or German "Betriebsübergang" this is not relevant to the discussion. These rules protect you as an employee, if your bakery is taken over by another bakery. They do nothing for you, if your bakery looses the contract with the local hotel, which decides to buy the bread from a bakery in the neighbour village. You are again writing nonsense. Of course it is relevant. The operation of traffic on a given network can be done only by one operator. To use your example: your local hotel orders their old baker to evacuate his premises and to hand them over to a new contractor. Sure, the German capitalists have done their utmost to drive down wages, and fools like to support them in this. Poor slave adoring the whip of his master coming down... L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it??happen here...??
Am 30.12.2011 19:48, schrieb Hans-Joachim Zierke:
Oliver Schnell schrieb: In the very end such investments *should* show (that does not necessarily mean, that there actually will be) a reasonable interest. So irrespective if the capital needed is from profits of subsidised traffic or other sources, a reasonable ROI has to apply. Please name /any/ foreign investment of DB, which shows a decent ROI. I have no idea, but this is irrelevant, concerning where the money comes from. BTW: You could be also interested in lower fares, more comfort, more ... Sure, but "more trains" is what we really got, paid by the saved subsidies, so that's realistic. We didn't get lower fares or more comfort. Wochenendticket and Ländertickets meanwhile exist for quite a while and rotten Silberlinge are out of service or revamped (for the few remaining). Oliver Schnell |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?happen here...??
On 31/12/11 10:42, Lüko Willms wrote:
Sure, the German capitalists have done their utmost to drive down wages, and fools like to support them in this. Just remind us, will you, what the GDP per head was in (a) the DDR and (b) the BRD immediately before reunification? Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On Dec 31, 10:24*am, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 31.12.2011 09:02, schrieb ian batten: * claiming Stalin didn't kill his political opponents. * *Do you? Your inability to answer a simple question shows you're either deluded or a liar. How unusual on the hard left. ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 31/12/11 10:23, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 31.12.2011 10:49, schrieb The Real Doctor: The difference between us is that I think Stalin's concentration camps were as bad as Hitler's and that Soviet colonialism in Europe was as immoral as European colonialism in Africa. You put that on equal terms in order to embellish the history of colonialism. That doesn't actually mean anything, you know. Auf Deutsch? You still stick to maintain as much as possible of the colonial empire of your master. Poor slave... Nope. Couldn't care less about the remaining colonies. As long as the people who live there want to be part of Britain, let 'em. If they decide they want to leave, that's fine by me. Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?happen here...??
On Dec 31, 11:05*am, The Real Doctor
wrote: On 31/12/11 10:42, Lüko Willms wrote: Sure, the German capitalists have done their utmost to drive down wages, and fools like to support them in this. Just remind us, will you, what the GDP per head was in (a) the DDR and (b) the BRD immediately before reunification? A man who believes that Stalin didn't kill anyone and the DDR was a workers' paradise is hardly likely to let facts trouble him. Luko: why did people flee the DDR, even at risk to their lives, in such numbers that the DDR needed armed guards to keep them in? If it was as good as you say, why would people have been so keen to leave it? And why didn't you live there while it existed? ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 31/12/11 08:02, ian batten wrote:
Next stop: Holocaust denial. The hard left generally doesn't deny that the holocaust happened, but doesn't mind that it did. The hard right generally denies that the holocaust happened, but would prefer that it had. Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 31/12/11 10:24, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 31.12.2011 09:02, schrieb ian batten: claiming Stalin didn't kill his political opponents. Do you? "According to the declassified Soviet archives, during 1937 and 1938, the NKVD detained 1,548,366 victims, of whom 681,692 were shot - an average of 1,000 executions a day" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_P...eople_executed Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?happen here...??
Am 31.12.2011 12:09, schrieb ian batten:
A man who believes that Stalin didn't kill anyone and the DDR was a workers' paradise is hardly likely to let facts trouble him. Luko: why did people flee the DDR, even at risk to their lives, in such numbers that the DDR needed armed guards to keep them in? Although I'm not Lügo, it is believed that it was just capitalistic propaganda spread out through West German TV and - bananas: http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archiv...L_1089244s.jpg (Front cover of a West German magazine in November 1989) Some more propaganda: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4RMwEYrOE8 (There is also the full movie available at youtube) SCNR Oliver Schnell |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?happen here...??
Am 31.12.2011 12:09, schrieb ian batten:
Luko: why did people flee the DDR, even at risk to their lives, in such numbers that the DDR needed armed guards to keep them in? If it was as good as you say, why would people have been so keen to leave it? And why didn't you live there while it existed? This is completely irrelevant to the issue we are discussing he the wishes which Herr Schnell voiced in this thread (and in many variations in other forums and in his native tongue). I also can't understand which you are bringing up the stalinist bloody destruction of the Russian communist party and his murder of revolutionaries. Herr Schnell does not propose to shoot or otherwise kill the Berlin railway workers, he only wants to make them unemployed, push them down in misery, so that they do no longer put up any resistance to the capitalist exploitation, obeying to the whip and bowing to a further driving down their wages and working conditions. Herr Schnell detests that other people actually do not give up easily their conquests which they had acquired over the past six decades or so. He likes to point to the difference between workers in, say Hamburg or Munich, who have lived all their lives under capitalism and those pesky railway workers in Berlin who have not, and wants to subjugate those into submission. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 31.12.2011 12:07, schrieb The Real Doctor:
You still stick to maintain as much as possible of the colonial empire of your master. Poor slave... Nope. Couldn't care less about the remaining colonies. Oh, talk about the Malvinas Islands, Ireland, what have you. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 31.12.2011 12:07, schrieb ian batten:
claiming Stalin didn't kill his political opponents. Do you? Your inability to answer a simple question shows you're either deluded or a liar. How unusual on the hard left. You digression into the stalinist destruction of the communist movement is completely out of place here. Nobody ever claimed that Herr Schnell wants to shoot or otherwise kill the Berlin railway workers. What brings you up on this crazy story? L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 31.12.2011 12:13, schrieb The Real Doctor:
"According to the declassified Soviet archives, during 1937 and 1938, the NKVD detained 1,548,366 victims, of whom 681,692 were shot - an average of 1,000 executions a day" Do you accuse Herr Schnell to want to kill those Berlin railway workers he wants to drive into submission, like Stalin killed the October revolution? This would be going by far too far. There is no ground for claiming such an outrage. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 31.12.2011 12:10, schrieb The Real Doctor:
On 31/12/11 08:02, ian batten wrote: Next stop: Holocaust denial. I prefer those who deny to those who actually advocate war against the "unwashed masses of this planet". And have a hangover from the colonial empires. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 31/12/2011 12:55, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 31.12.2011 12:07, schrieb The Real Doctor: You still stick to maintain as much as possible of the colonial empire of your master. Poor slave... Nope. Couldn't care less about the remaining colonies. Oh, talk about the Malvinas Islands, Ireland, what have you. So you can demonstrate your appalling ignorance of the situation in those places? -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
On 31 Dec 2011 07:59:08 GMT
Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote: Adventurous youth then opened the trackside doors by emergency handle, and cattle followed the leaders. Cattle are quite happy to sit for hours. People are not. If a railway company does not want people wandering around on its tracks then it needs to sort out its evacuation procedures for when there is a system breakdown. Just leaving people sitting on a train for hours with no information is not an option as the passengers will simply leave and its no good the train companies whining about it because it's their fault. B2003 |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it? happen here...??
On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 12:25:36 +0100, Oliver Schnell
wrote: Am 31.12.2011 12:09, schrieb ian batten: A man who believes that Stalin didn't kill anyone and the DDR was a workers' paradise is hardly likely to let facts trouble him. Luko: why did people flee the DDR, even at risk to their lives, in such numbers that the DDR needed armed guards to keep them in? Although I'm not Lügo, it is believed that it was just capitalistic propaganda spread out through West German TV and - bananas: http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archiv...L_1089244s.jpg (Front cover of a West German magazine in November 1989) That is possibly true to some extent in the same way that people often travel thousands of miles legally or illegally to find to their disappointment that e.g. the streets of London tend to be paved with sh1t rather than gold and that some (note- only some) of the locals are nastier than those they have left behind. snip |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it??happen here...??
Oliver Schnell schrieb: Please name /any/ foreign investment of DB, which shows a decent ROI. I have no idea, but this is irrelevant, concerning where the money comes from. I think the highest profit margin is achieved in Brandenburg, where all the traffic went to DB Regio without bidding, and a short while later, DB gave a nice advisor job to the former transport minister of Brandenburg, in charge during that decisionmaking. So the money comes from you, the taxpayer, paid into a corruption scheme, then used to fulfill manager's dreams of a transport empire. I'm not against managers trying to build a transport empire, but please, with legitimate means, asking investors for the money, instead of purging it from the taxpayers in the grey zone of "as long as we aren't prosecuted and go into prison, our ways are fine". We didn't get lower fares or more comfort. Wochenendticket and Ländertickets meanwhile exist for quite a while ....and might lower the costs for 10% of ones journeys. This doesn't balance the fare rises. Without doubt, they have done a useful job of filling empty trains, though, and admittedly, they really bring down travel costs for the retired. and rotten Silberlinge are out of service or revamped (for the few remaining). While they have been replaced by better stock at some places, examples would be Eurobahn FLIRTs or the FLIRTs of DB in Rostock service, there are also several hundred 425, which are considerably worse than a rotten Silberling. So I don't see progress at the bottom line. Hans-Joachim -- Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011 http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Wolfgang Schwanke schrieb: By US standards, it would be, but by US standards, the ICE is a light rail system, too. What? :) Have a look at the weight of the Acela, in order to understand the sentence. Acela is, what you get with FRA regulations. Okay, this might be more useful for understanding: http://zierke.com/shasta_route/siden...tyconcept.html Hans-Joachim -- Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011 http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 10:17 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2006 LondonBanter.co.uk