Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 01/01/2012 15:13, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
wrote in
:

Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 00:21:23 +0100
From:
Subject: Single point of failure in the Berlin Train System

The Berlin light rail train system, plagued by problems for years,
demonstrated today that it can, indeed get worse.

I wouldn't call the S-Bahn "light rail". By the usual standards it's
"heavy rail".

Berliners joked that it could not possibly get worse, but today (15
Dec 2011) the S-Bahn proved that it could, indeed, because it has a
single point of failure.

Failures in 2009/2010 were caused by lack of maintenance, leading to
shortages in rolling stock. The ultimate cause was the closedown of a
vital workshop due to company policy of channeling money to the owner
company as profits. It remains to be seen if the latest failure can be
ascribed to the same cause.

So, would you say that things on the Berlin S-Bahn are better now or
during the DDR era, when Deutsche Reichsbahn was operating that system?

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 01/01/2012 16:48, Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote:

Wolfgang Schwanke schrieb:


By US standards, it would be, but by US standards, the ICE is a light
rail system, too.

What? :)


Have a look at the weight of the Acela, in order to understand the
sentence. Acela is, what you get with FRA regulations.


Okay, this might be more useful for understanding:
http://zierke.com/shasta_route/siden...tyconcept.html




Hans-Joachim





Why are there two cab signal indicators in the photo? The upper one
looks like it has five aspects, by the way, whereas I thought that the
NEC has only four.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 31.12.2011 15:14, schrieb Graeme Wall:
You still stick to maintain as much as possible of the colonial empire
of your master. Poor slave...

Oh, talk about the Malvinas Islands, Ireland, what have you.

Here comes another with the same "me and my master" attitude cheering
up the miserable rests of the British colonial empi

So you can demonstrate your appalling ignorance of the situation in
those places?



L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 01.01.2012 16:16, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
Oliver wrote in
:

This rotten company in Berlin should be closed. Tendering the S-Bahn
services could be the first step.

Re-nationalise it. A different commercial operator will squeeze it for
profit just like the current one.

Actually Herr Schnell wants to squeeze _more_ profit out of the
Berlin S-Bahn operations. He only thinks that the current workers
trained in the GDR traditions are hindering such squeezing, for which
they should be shown the torture instruments, like Hartz4.


L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 01.01.2012 16:13, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
Failures in 2009/2010 were caused by lack of maintenance, leading to
shortages in rolling stock. The ultimate cause was the closedown of a
vital workshop due to company policy of channeling money to the owner
company as profits. It remains to be seen if the latest failure can be
ascribed to the same cause.

Maybe, but not under the responsibility of "S-Bahn Berlin GmbH", but
of "DB Netz AG".


Cheers,
L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 01/01/2012 18:10, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 31.12.2011 15:14, schrieb Graeme Wall:
You still stick to maintain as much as possible of the colonial empire
of your master. Poor slave...

Oh, talk about the Malvinas Islands, Ireland, what have you.

Here comes another with the same "me and my master" attitude cheering up
the miserable rests of the British colonial empi


Another of your meaningless pieces of nonsense?


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 01.01.2012 19:17, schrieb Graeme Wall:
Another of your meaningless pieces of nonsense?

talking to yourself, eh?

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 01/01/2012 18:18, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 01.01.2012 19:17, schrieb Graeme Wall:
Another of your meaningless pieces of nonsense?

talking to yourself, eh?




Ah, the last resort of the clueless.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 01/01/2012 17:58, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
wrote
in :

Failures in 2009/2010 were caused by lack of maintenance, leading to
shortages in rolling stock. The ultimate cause was the closedown of a
vital workshop due to company policy of channeling money to the owner
company as profits. It remains to be seen if the latest failure can be
ascribed to the same cause.

So, would you say that things on the Berlin S-Bahn are better now or
during the DDR era, when Deutsche Reichsbahn was operating that system?

Are you Lüko's twin? That's a silly question.

I'm asking purely out of curiosity -- no other reason.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
 

On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 16:16:43 +0100, Wolfgang Schwanke
wrote:
Re-nationalise it. A different commercial operator will squeeze it
for
profit just like the current one.

DB isn't really a commercial operator; all their shares are owned by
the German Government, no?

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?? happen here...??
 

On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 14:49:10 +0000 (UTC), Hans-Joachim Zierke
wrote:


Oliver Schnell schrieb:


Please name /any/ foreign investment of DB, which shows a decent ROI.

I have no idea, but this is irrelevant, concerning where the money comes
from.

I think the highest profit margin is achieved in Brandenburg, where all
the traffic went to DB Regio without bidding, and a short while later, DB
gave a nice advisor job to the former transport minister of Brandenburg,
in charge during that decisionmaking.
So the money comes from you, the taxpayer, paid into a corruption scheme,
then used to fulfill manager's dreams of a transport empire.

I'm not against managers trying to build a transport empire, but please,
with legitimate means, asking investors for the money, instead of purging
it from the taxpayers in the grey zone of "as long as we aren't
prosecuted and go into prison, our ways are fine".


We didn't get lower fares or more comfort.

Wochenendticket and Ländertickets meanwhile exist for quite a while

...and might lower the costs for 10% of ones journeys. This doesn't
balance the fare rises.

Without doubt, they have done a useful job of filling empty trains,
though, and admittedly, they really bring down travel costs for the
retired.



and
rotten Silberlinge are out of service or revamped (for the few remaining).

While they have been replaced by better stock at some places, examples
would be Eurobahn FLIRTs or the FLIRTs of DB in Rostock service, there
are also several hundred 425, which are considerably worse than a rotten
Silberling.

Is the problem with the 425 series the seating (or seating
arrangement)? Would it be feasible to change the seating during a
major overhaul and eliminate the problem? If the problems are
elsewhere, are they fixable during a major overhaul at reasonable
cost?

Clark Morris
So I don't see progress at the bottom line.


Hans-Joachim

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
 

"Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message
...
Oliver Schnell wrote in
:

This rotten company in Berlin should be closed. Getting back to the
subject line.....

No it COULD NOT happen here.

The shutdown (almost or otherwise) of Berlin Train System could only happen
in Germany as US (vermont) Berlin doesn't have a city traim system.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it??happen here...??
 

Am 01.01.2012 20:42, schrieb Clark F Morris:
Is the problem with the 425 series the seating (or seating
arrangement)? Would it be feasible to change the seating during a
major overhaul and eliminate the problem?

According to _my_ experience, the problem with the Class 425 is only
the seat. They are too hard for the type of journeys for which those
trainsets are being used. And I think that this could be fixed by a
major overhaul.


Cheers,
L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 01.01.2012 20:29, schrieb Neil Williams:

DB isn't really a commercial operator;

wrong

all their shares are owned by the German Government, no?

Yes, but why do you link these two statements into one sentence, only
separated by a semicolon? There is no the slightest relationship between
those two.


Cheers,
L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 01.01.2012 20:45, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
Upsides of the communist era:

you forgot the quotes around "communist".

The system worked well given the circumstances, and
it was apparent that the employees were eager to do
their best. There was no talk of shutting down lines for
non-profitability

true for the lines on GDR territory, since the importance was to get
people from A go B

(but for cold war reasons :)),

only in the sense that lines across the borders between the GDR and
the peculiar political entity Westberlin were cut in August 1961.

The rest of the lines within Westberlin were actually closed down for
profitability reasons, if you want to employ that word. The GDR did not
want to subsidise public transit in another country, a country which was
very hostile to the govenment which subsidised the S-Bahn in Westberlin.


Cheers,
L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 01/01/2012 19:45, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
wrote in
:

On 01/01/2012 17:58, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
wrote
in :

Failures in 2009/2010 were caused by lack of maintenance, leading
to shortages in rolling stock. The ultimate cause was the closedown
of a vital workshop due to company policy of channeling money to
the owner company as profits. It remains to be seen if the latest
failure can be ascribed to the same cause.

So, would you say that things on the Berlin S-Bahn are better now or
during the DDR era, when Deutsche Reichsbahn was operating that
system?

Are you Lüko's twin? That's a silly question.

I'm asking purely out of curiosity -- no other reason.

I'll try to reanswer with perspective. You're asking me if the downsides
of communism and the cold war era were worse than the downsides of the
privatisation era. I can't really make up my mind :).

No, I was just wondering if operations on the Berlin S-Bahn were
generally better or worse when Deutsche Reichsbahn was operating the
service, all politics aside.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 01.01.2012 16:16, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
Oliver wrote in
:

This rotten company in Berlin should be closed. Tendering the S-Bahn
services could be the first step.

Re-nationalise it. A different commercial operator will squeeze it for
profit just like the current one.

Sqeeze for profit? How to make profit with a company with a lack of 50%
in efficiency compared to other ones, when all bidding for the same tender?

It's the taxpayer who pays for keeping that last socialistic company in
Germany alive. But as the state of Berlin who pays for these S-Bahn
services higher prices then necessary is more or less bankrupt and gets
financed by a few other Länder anyway, Berlin does not care, if to spent
a few dozen millions of (external) Euros per year more or less for the
S-Bahn.

In 2008 the S-Bahn received 294 mill. Euro of public money for running
the train services, meaning a subsidy of 7.5 Euro Cent per passenger
kilometre in addition to the fare revenues.

And its the same with other public transport in Berlin (metro, tramway,
buses). Its level of cost coverage is at 36% (2008). This is sigficantly
lower than for very other big city in Germany, where the average cost
covergae in public transport is at about 60% (2007).

Sources:
http://www.ihk-berlin.de/linkableblo...ibung-data.pdf
http://www.staedtetag.de/imperia/md/...ien/2009/9.pdf

Oliver Schnell

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it??happen here...??
 

Clark F Morris schrieb:


Is the problem with the 425 series the seating (or seating
arrangement)?

Both.

Would it be feasible to change the seating during a
major overhaul and eliminate the problem? If the problems are
elsewhere, are they fixable during a major overhaul at reasonable
cost?

The seating could be changed, and this could make it a much better train.
Knee room would still not be sufficient, though, but there are more
examples for that, so it would be bad, but not exceptionally bad.
(Arrangement is unchangeable due to tech under the seats.)

As well, noise damping against the ear-piercing inverter frequencies at
some loadlevels should be technically possible.



BTW: The original concept for the 425 pointed to a superior train.
Then the beancounters came in and ruined it beyond repair.



Two adult males can't sit side by side. On the window side, the garbage
can gets pressed into your leg above the knee, on the other side, the
base of the armrest was sharpened towards the passenger's leg for maximum
torture effect...

Some days ago, I did my first really long ride in one of those
contraptions, Mainz-Karlsruhe, and it is outright horrible. We can only
pray, that DB looses all the contracts, which they run with 425s.

The competitors use mostly FLIRTs, which are paradise (in comparison).
The original Stadler seating is junk (though /much/ better than 425), but
with Grammer seats, as used in new Eurobahn units, they are comfortable
trains. Well, not as in "long distance comfort", but okay.



Hans-Joachim



--

Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011

http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
 

On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:56:38 +0100, Lüko
wrote:
Yes, but why do you link these two statements into one sentence,
only
separated by a semicolon? There is no the slightest relationship
between
those two.

If it's owned by the Government it's nationalised, whatever means
that ownership may take, IMO.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Wolfgang Schwanke schrieb:


Failures in 2009/2010 were caused by


design error by the manufacturer, miscalculating wheel strength.



Hans-Joachim



--

Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011

http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?? happen here...??
 

On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 22:21:41 +0000 (UTC), Hans-Joachim Zierke
wrote:
Two adult males can't sit side by side. On the window side, the
garbage
can gets pressed into your leg above the knee

This is a major flaw in almost all European stock. Just put a big
one in the vestibule.

with Grammer seats, as used in new Eurobahn units

Tombstones?

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Wolfgang Schwanke schrieb:


Are you Lüko's twin? That's a silly question. I would say things were
best at the end of the 1990s when the system was reunified and new
extensions had been added, but the adverse effects of privatisation
hadn't had time to kick in yet. Things have gone downhill since.

"Downhill" could be marked with the scrapping of not just the old museum
trains, but GDR trains of the late 80s, stripping the S-Bahn of any
reserve.

An example for the arrogance of West-German managers. Yes, sure, they
were technically inferior, but wiser people would have put them into
storage yards.

Now they have lost tentousands of passengers per day, with no other
reason than "we don't need that GDR junk".


Hans-Joachim

--

Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011

http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it??happen here...??
 

Am 01.01.2012 23:21, schrieb Hans-Joachim Zierke:

Clark F Morris schrieb:


Is the problem with the 425 series the seating (or seating
arrangement)?

Both.

Would it be feasible to change the seating during a
major overhaul and eliminate the problem? If the problems are
elsewhere, are they fixable during a major overhaul at reasonable
cost?

The seating could be changed, and this could make it a much better train.
Knee room would still not be sufficient, though, but there are more
examples for that, so it would be bad, but not exceptionally bad.
(Arrangement is unchangeable due to tech under the seats.)

As well, noise damping against the ear-piercing inverter frequencies at
some loadlevels should be technically possible.



BTW: The original concept for the 425 pointed to a superior train.
Then the beancounters came in and ruined it beyond repair.



Two adult males can't sit side by side. On the window side, the garbage
can gets pressed into your leg above the knee, on the other side, the
base of the armrest was sharpened towards the passenger's leg for maximum
torture effect...

We are talking about these seats.
http://www.bahnbilder.de/bilder/br-425-15767.jpg
http://www.vbn.de/bilder/et425-innen.jpg
Indeed it's a bit narrow for the typical German railfan suffering on
adipositas - and you can't open the window to lean out.
That's why regional trains in Germany at any case have to look lioke this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...A_DSB00017.JPG
in the last and in the next five decades.

Oliver Schnell

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Wolfgang Schwanke schrieb:


only in the sense that lines across the borders between the GDR and
the peculiar political entity Westberlin were cut in August 1961.

which the East German government did.


Let's be historically correct he The first interruption, of the tram
system, was undertaken by West-Berlin, when they didn't allow female
drivers to enter.


Hans-Joachim


--

Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011

http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?happen here...??
 

On 31/12/11 12:54, Lüko Willms wrote:
He likes to point to the difference between workers in, say Hamburg or
Munich, who have lived all their lives under capitalism and those pesky
railway workers in Berlin who have not, and wants to subjugate those
into submission.

Why did your comrades in (Ost)Berlin feel it necessary to kill railway
workers there who wanted to work in Hamburg, while the authorities in
Hamburg did not take similar action against railway workers who wished
to move eastwards?

I think this is very relevant to your claim that DR workers had a better
deal than DB workers.

Ian

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 31/12/11 12:55, Lüko Willms wrote:

Oh, talk about the Malvinas Islands, Ireland, what have you.

The Falklands? Yes, happy to talk about them.

I think it was just as daft for Britain to assume that it had the right
to rule a smaller island of its coast as it is for the Argentina to
assume it has the right to rule a small island off its coast.

If the inhabitants of the Falklands were to show a clear majority desire
to join Argentina, I'd be happy to wish them buena suerte, and if the
inhabitants of NI were to show a clear majority desire to join the
Republic then luck maith to them too.

Now, explain again why you think that the USSR had the right to colonize
and suppress Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, East Germany, Hungary,
Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia for decades?

Ian

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 31/12/11 12:59, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 31.12.2011 12:10, schrieb The Real Doctor:
On 31/12/11 08:02, ian batten wrote:
Next stop: Holocaust denial.

I prefer those who deny to those who actually advocate war against the
"unwashed masses of this planet".

If I meet anybody sho does that I shall be sure to hiss at them.

And have a hangover from the colonial
empires.

Do you mean middle class idealists in Germany who defend the decades of
brutal soviet colonialism in Europe, or is this a reference to the
expansionist desires of the Spanish colonial descendants in Buenos Aires?

Ian

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 01/01/12 15:27, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
I get it, Lüko is an undercover agent of the privatisation profiteers,
by associating any opposition to it with eastern block style
communision, and preventing any rational discussion beyond such crude
black&white patterns.

It's a plausible theory. Or as undercover agents on uk.railway
traditionally put it:

Excellent, personal abuse. Nice try. Do go on.

Ian

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 01/01/12 22:49, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
No not really. DB is run like a normal company with the goal to make a
profit. The fact that it is (still?) owned by the government appears
not to change this fact.

The idea that nationalised companies shouldn't make a profit is an
insidious one which resulted in the collapse of most nationalised
industries in the UK and elsewhere. Worker ownership of the means of
production doesn't work if /all/ of them need a subsidy.

Ian

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 01/01/12 17:58, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
They just want privat companies to extract money out
of the system, and I don't see why that should be.

Is it wrong for the employees of private companies (or nationalised
companies, for that matter) to earn money from their work? Should they
not be paid with food, clothes and housing?

Ian

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it???happen here...??
 

Neil Williams schrieb:


with Grammer seats, as used in new Eurobahn units

Tombstones?

???

http://www.grammer.com/fileadmin/use...tenblatt_D.pdf

450mm is certainly not enough, but if the seats get shifted a little away
from the window, things start to get acceptable.


Hans-Joachim


--

Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011

http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it???happen here...??
 

Neil Williams schrieb:


with Grammer seats, as used in new Eurobahn units

Tombstones?

???

http://www.grammer.com/fileadmin/use...tenblatt_D.pdf

450mm is certainly not enough, but if the seats get shifted a little away
from the window, things start to get acceptable.


Hans-Joachim


--

Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011

http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 02/01/12 00:40, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
Industries should not be nationalised, your bringing this up is a
strawman. The idea is that certain basic services such as traffic
systems, communication and the energy grids should be run by the
government, but not the entire economy.

I wholly agree that these things (with the exception of
communication[1]) are better organised for and by society as a whole.
However, the profitability issue is a separate one: there is no
particular reason why electricity supply, for example should make a loss.

Why, after all, should those who don't use much electricty subsidise
those who do? The same goes for railways.

Ian

[1] State control of communication is a scary concept. Look at SOPA in
the US for an example of where it can lead. Anyway, phone services in
the UK are far, far better and far, far cheaper than when the Post
Office had a monopoly.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it??happen here...??
 

Oliver Schnell schrieb:


We are talking about these seats.
http://www.bahnbilder.de/bilder/br-425-15767.jpg
http://www.vbn.de/bilder/et425-innen.jpg
Indeed it's a bit narrow for the typical German railfan suffering on
adipositas

Go to your university library, and you'll find tables with the average
body dimensions of modern humans. Look up the average shoulder width of
European males.
If the seats are narrower than that, simple math tells you, that they
can't work - regardless of waist size.

Knowledge in math for 7-year-olds isn't asked too much.



- and you can't open the window to lean out.

Please explain. Why do you want such windows in an air-conditioned train?



That's why regional trains in Germany at any case have to look lioke this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...A_DSB00017.JPG
in the last and in the next five decades.

Maybe for you.

For me, this here
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/...B_ET7_10_i.jpg
is the minimum standard. Better solutions welcome.



Hans-Joachim


--

Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011

http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
 

Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
Oliver Schnell wrote in
:

Am 01.01.2012 16:16, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
Oliver wrote in
:

This rotten company in Berlin should be closed. Tendering the S-Bahn
services could be the first step.

Re-nationalise it. A different commercial operator will squeeze it
for profit just like the current one.

Sqeeze for profit?

It has been well document in a number of press reports that the service
disruptions of 2009/2010 were caused by a lack of rolling stock, which
was in turn caused by a lack of maintenance, which was in turn caused
by a closedown of an important workshop, which had been ordered by the
management to reduce costs, which was in turn done to transfer higher
profits to the owner company DB.

So the root cause of all the problems is the desire to make profit in
the management,

The desire has been to convert the S-Bahn Berlin GmbH into a company
showing comparable efficiency than other S-Bahn Systems in Germany.
Is this a mistake? Is it a law of nature that public transport in Berlin
under all circumstances can not be as efficient than elsewhere in Germany?
If yes, please explain, why this is the case.

instead of the desire to deliver a service which they
lack. That is quite normal for the management of a private company. You
can be asured they don't think of themselves as failures because they
achieved _their_ goal, which is to send a profit to the owner.

Even after this cut the S-Bahn Berlin is still quite unefficient.

If they
provide a transport service as a side effect or not is immaterial to
them. However this mentality is disastrous if applied to a public
service, as we can see.

The mentality to run something efficient is "disastrous"?

Conclusion: Do not run public services as private companies, the Berlin
S-Bahn being a good - but by far not the only - example what happens if
you do. Therefore transferring it to a different operator while not
removing the profit making paradigm won't change a thing.

Please tell me then, how Deutsche Bahn manages to do well in other S-Bahn
systems in Germany like Hamburg. Munich or Stuttgart.

How to make profit with a company with a lack of
50% in efficiency compared to other ones, when all bidding for the
same tender?

The subsidies are coming in regardless.

Do they? Why are there significantly less subsidies needed per
passenger or train kilometre elsewhere? I would really like to have an
answer on this to understand why the situation in Berlin has to be
considered different from the rest of Germany.

The management achieve their
profit targets without having to deliver a good quality service. And
they're not interested in the service out of their own mentality,
because their background is not rail. Their background is a managment
carreer. That is what you get when you privatise a public service.

It's the taxpayer who pays for keeping that last socialistic company
in Germany alive.

The taxpayer keeps alive _all_ railway systems in the country,
regardless what labels you choose to attach to them, because they
cannot be operated at a profit. So what's your pint?

That the specific subsidies needed in Berlin to provide public transport
are higher than elsewhere in Germany.

The relevant question is, what conclusion do you draw from this fact?I
presented mine above.

My conclusion is, that the taxpayers money should be used in a responsibly.
And I would like to have that with the same efficiency in Berlin like
in other parts of Germany.

Alternatively I would like to have an explanation, why public transport in
Berlin has to be so much less efficient.

In 2008 the S-Bahn received 294 mill. Euro of public money for running
the train services, meaning a subsidy of 7.5 Euro Cent per passenger
kilometre in addition to the fare revenues.

The fact that it has to be subsidised sounds normal to me, it's being
done in all cities I'm aware of. What's your point?

Once again: the *specifc* amount of subsidy needed.

And its the same with other public transport in Berlin (metro,
tramway, buses). Its level of cost coverage is at 36% (2008). This is
sigficantly lower than for very other big city in Germany, where the
average cost covergae in public transport is at about 60% (2007).

Berlin public transport has somewhat better service and higher usage
(due to low car ownershihp) than most German cities, that may be part
of the explanation.

Nope. The specific subsidies (per passenger kilometre and train kilometre)
are higher then elsewhere. This benchmark already includes the level
of service existing and its usage.

Cost coverage of public transport in Berlin is at 36%, while in Stuttgart
it was at 57% (2011), in Munich 80% and in Hamburg at 75%.
http://www.bkz-online.de/node/317089
http://www.tz-online.de/aktuelles/mu...rer-66123.html
http://www.hvv.de/aktuelles/presse/p...broschuere.pdf

While cutting cost is certainly a good idea, it
should not be done by reducing service or rising fares (which they're
doing though, so you can sleep well).

That is another point. The fares are not that low, that this could be taken
as an explanation for the amount of subsidies.


Oliver Schnell

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?? happen here...??
 

On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 23:36:16 +0100, Oliver Schnell
wrote:
We are talking about these seats.
http://www.bahnbilder.de/bilder/br-425-15767.jpg
http://www.vbn.de/bilder/et425-innen.jpg

I quite like those...

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it??? happen here...??
 

On 02 Jan 2012 00:34:44 GMT, Hans-Joachim Zierke
wrote:

http://www.grammer.com/fileadmin/use...mages/produkte
/Prospekte_deutsch/Bahn/Prospekte_06.11.2007/D_3000_mit_Ergomechanics_D
atenblatt_D.pdf

Those look good. By tombstones I refer to the very high back fGW HST
ones.

I agree about putting them too near the windows. In narrow UK stock
you kind of have to, but in UIC stock nobody would notice 2" off the
gangway.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On Jan 2, 12:15*am, The Real Doctor wrote:


Now, explain again why you think that the USSR had the right to colonize
and suppress Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, East Germany, Hungary,
Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia for decades?

Luko's what is generally referred to on the left as a tankie. He
thinks that Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968 were justified
reactions to western imperialism. That's why he isn't busy denying
Stalin killed anyone and if he did they they deserved it anyway.

ian

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
 

On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 02:46:27 -0800 (PST)
ian batten wrote:
On Jan 2, 12:15=A0am, The Real Doctor wrote:


Now, explain again why you think that the USSR had the right to colonize
and suppress Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, East Germany, Hungary,
Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia for decades?

Luko's what is generally referred to on the left as a tankie. He
thinks that Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968 were justified
reactions to western imperialism. That's why he isn't busy denying
Stalin killed anyone and if he did they they deserved it anyway.

Isn't it odd how almost none of the lefties who hated "imprerialism" (whatever
that actually is aside from an apparent dislike of the masses having self
determination - ie democracy) never actually ****ed off to live in the USSR
they so loved but were perfectly happy shouting their retarded views from
within a western country with a nice standard of living that allowed them to
do it? They remind me of teenagers who constantly slag off their parents but
are quite happy to spend daddies money.

B2003

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 02/01/12 10:46, ian batten wrote:
That's why he isn't busy denying
Stalin killed anyone and if he did they they deserved it anyway.

I note that he has once again very carefully avoided saying what he
thinks of the Holocaust.

Ian