On 06/01/2012 23:10, bob wrote:

My dictionary is the Oxford English Dictionary. I suggest you look up
the way it is compiled.

By criminal loonies from the funny farm?

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On 06/01/12 23:36, ian batten wrote:
Not only that, but it allows you the luxury of adopting morally and
intellectually pure policies, safe in the knowledge that you'll never
have to either implement them or defend the consequences to the
electorate.

See also: The Tea Party.

Ian

On 06/01/2012 18:17, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 05.01.2012 15:50, schrieb Graham Nye:
The links are legitimate. You can look at them safely.

If that is the case, why are they hidden? Is there
something to be ashamed of?

Yes, Lenin's order to murder farmers. You also appear
to be too ashamed to look at the evidence. As well you
might be.


--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

On 06/01/2012 18:24, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 05.01.2012 15:46, schrieb Graham Nye:
Right of centre states aren't likely, by their own principles, to
retain profitable enterprises under state control. Can you give
some examples of capitalist states operating profitable enterprises?

Germany, France, United States, certainly many many others.

Good. Can you name some of the profitable state-controlled enterprises
each of these countries operate?

What is a "Right of centre state"? Poland? Belarus?

According to wonkypaedia Poland has a centre-right government, so
yes. Belarus appears to be more of a one man, one vote democracy -
Alexander Lukashenko is the man and he appears to enjoy the vote.


--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

On 06/01/2012 18:22, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 05.01.2012 16:07, schrieb Graham Nye:
Given your constant evasion of questions about life in the DDR and its
fellow travellers you must be aware of its shortcomings. Why don't you
belatedly join the rest of your fellow citizens in welcoming the fall
of the DDR? If you don't like living in modern-day Germany you can at
least leave it without being shot in the back.

You try to stage a show trial, but your victim is not disposed to
masochism. And the judge threw your case out of court.

"Show trial" appears to have been your phrase for yesterday. A topic
close to your heart?

Come back to the subject of debate. Ask your questions about it, and
you might get answers.

I asked you a question above. I'm still waiting for an answer.

But Stalin's show trials, or the ones of king Henry VIII won't be
repeated here. Sorry for you, but you do not have the necessary police
force for that.

No but I expect the DDR did.


--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

On 04/01/2012 21:41, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
"Paul wrote in
:

Meanwhile passengers waiting to
board the train on the platform had to wait, all whom would have been
people who'd arrived by U-Bahn or S-Bahn from West Berlin.

Not quite . When I was there in 1989 pensioners were allowed to exit
the Socialist Utopia in the street outside and there were a lot of
Poles coming through the checkpoint below (and checkpoint charlie too
- (for Luko's benefit that's the Uberganstelle
Friedrichstrasse/Zimmerstrasse).

Yes but they would still have arrived (geographically) from West
Berlin. Of course certain groups of easterners were allowed to travel
there, pensioners being the most important one.

I think the Poiish Government must
have told the DDR to let them pass.

Poland had more liberal emigration laws than most other Eastern Block
countries. I don't know the details, but somehow they were entitled to
western travel under certain conditions. There have always been a large
number of Poles in West Germany legally. I think Hungary was similar.

AIUI, Poles during the communist era were allowed to visit West Berlin,
but I don't know if they were allowed to go into West Germany from there.

IIRC, Yugoslav citizens could also easily acquire international
passports and leave the country.

On 04/01/2012 21:41, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
"Paul wrote
in :

I am quite sure that Friedrichstraße was the only East Berlin
S-Bahn
station where one could buy S-Bahn tickets towards West Berlin in DM.
And only in the "non-socialist currency" area, i.e. the area which
acted as an exchange station for intra West Berlin traffic.

I saw them on the machine at Kopenick.

Until 1984 the DR treated the S-Bahn system basically as one, despite
the wall. Tickets from East to West Berlin were just another fare within
the system, "Preisstufe 10" ("fare level 10"). The network diagrams they
published showed the entire city and were the same on both sides. This
is the last one from 1983:

http://www.schmalspurbahn.de/netze/Netz_1983_klein.gif

It's quite an interesting design too. While it pays reference to the
official party nomenclature ("Berlin" for East Berlin, "Westberlin"
without a hyphen - Lüko uses that in his posts -, the wall designated as
"international border", ghost stations not depicted etc.), it goes
against the party line to an extent. Otherwhise East German publications
would carefully avoid any hint of commonalities between East and West,
while this one not only shows both sides as one, but the design clearly
suggests to the viewer which lines were severed by the wall and ought to
be re-joined. Quite remarkable IMHO.

Likewhise the West Berlin BVG used to print U-Bahn maps showing the
entire system:

http://www.schmalspurbahn.de/netze/Netz_1983BVG.jpg

In 1984 BVG took over the operation of the S-Bahn in West Berlin, since
then the diagrams in East and West have integrated U-Bahn and S-Bahn
into one map, but tended to show their halves of the city only:

http://www.schmalspurbahn.de/netze/Netz_1984_klein.gif
http://www.schmalspurbahn.de/netze/N...4BVG_klein.gif

The Western map still pays symbolic tribute to East Berlin, but the
fact that there's a transport network there is merely hinted.

The first diagram of U-Bahn and S-Bahn of the entire city was published
in december 1989:

http://www.wschwanke.de/tmp/berlin_198912_usbahn_B.jpg

Obviously based on the BVG diagram, the lines in the east had been
hastily added, without distinction what line belonged to what system
and with a lot of errors. Still this diagram was iconic, as it was the
first showing the entire city with both systems. We'd never seen that
before. The current diagram is evolved from that one.


"Wir sind ein Volk!"

On 04/01/2012 21:41, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
Lüko wrote
in :

I am quite sure that Friedrichstraße was the only East Berlin S-Bahn
station where one could buy S-Bahn tickets towards West Berlin in DM.
And only in the "non-socialist currency" area, i.e. the area which acted
as an exchange station for intra West Berlin traffic.

In the "eastern" part of the station there was a ticket counter where
you could buy the same tickets at the same price in East German marks.
And at least until 1984 those tickets were available all over East
Berlin. Maybe after 1984 only at Friedrichstraße, I'm not sure.

Were those at the subsidised price of 20 pfennig? It wouldn't surprise
if they would have wanted to see exit documents from the DDR if buying a
ticket into West Berlin, in which case presentation of a West German
passport would have immediately put the fare into Deutsch marks.

On 05/01/2012 09:26, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 04/01/12 21:41, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
I think Hungary was similar.

As I recall it East Germans could travel to Hungary, and as things
started changing they could travel from there to Austria. Tens of
thousands started doing so, the DDR government asked the Hungarians to
stop them[1], the Hungarians refused and at that point the wall became
pointless.

Ian

[1] Previously the DDR government had paid a bonus to Bulgarian border
guards every time they shot and killed and East German trying to
emigrate. I don't know if they made the same kind offer to Hungarians.

They also did that on the Inner German Border, did they not?

On 06/01/2012 10:57, Paul Rigg wrote:
I think his point was, and I think he is right, that the DDR authorities
allowed anyone to cross the wall who was either not one of their own
nationals or a national of another country (ie the Eastern Block) with
whom they had an agreement to stop travel.

Did Soviet officers often cross into West Berlin for the day?

The West German authorities did not check entries to West Berlin from
East Berlin, presumably because of the four powers agreement which said
that West Berlin was made up of British, American and French Sectors.

West Berlin was technically not a part of the Bundesrepublik, IIRC,
although its citizens did have West German passports.