Roland Perry wrote:
at 14:02:00 on Sun, 4 Mar 2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:

It's a cashflow issue. My main reason for using credit cards is because
I'm paying for travelling expenses that will get billed to a client.

A business charge card (which is how you _use_ yours, even if that's not
how the bank sees it) is an entirely different matter from a personal
(revolving) credit card.

So which are you talking about?

Considering department stores were extensive providers of revolving credit
using a merchant card, I have no idea.

On 04-Mar-12 02:56, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:49:32 on Sat, 3 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Why would they care if it's a gift card? A card is a card; as long as
the transaction is authorized, that's all that matters.

That's the big "if". There are many ticket vending machines, and
portable machines, which are simply not "online", so they can't
authorise at all.

Then the merchant is taking a risk on each transaction, regardless of
the card type.

There's always a small risk, and sometimes the ticket vendor will make a
[mobile] phone call if a particular cardholder raises suspicions.

If mobile service is available, why not just authorize every card and
avoid the risk of being sued for discrimination--which will cost far,
far more (even if you win) than losing the occasional fare?

Oh right, you have a functional legal system, unlike the US...

But as we don't have these faux-credit-card gift cards here,

Gift cards are simply the most obvious example of the problem; it goes
much deeper than that.

and people with credit cards and bank accounts that allow overdrafts
usually do pay these off, the only class where there's a serious worry
is the no-overdraft debit card holders.

Some of our debit cards allow overdraft, while others don't; that is an
option by the account holder. There is no way to know by looking at the
card number whether it does.

Also, many Americans have maxed out their credit cards as well, so
there's no guarantee _those_ charges will go through either.

Unless you authorize the card, you simply don't know. That is, after
all, the entire purpose of authorization.

Given the cheap and ubiquitous mobile data networks, there is no excuse
for not being able to do online authorization.

They aren't cheap and ubiquitous enough. In particular, the equipment
would need replacing (not just simple upgrading).

It gets replaced every few years anyway, and the cost of adding mobile
data to them should be trivial.

I don't believe data
networks are ubiquitous in the USA either, if the very spotty mobile
phone coverage more than a few miles from major cities and highways is
anything to go by.

The main problem in the US is multiple incompatible networks, and it
should be better overseas where everyone uses GSM. Still, US mobile
coverage is pretty good; even a decade ago 96% of the US population was
covered, and nearly all Interstate highways are. Rural areas and lesser
highways are being covered rapidly, as would rail lines if a non-trivial
amount of passenger traffic existed.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Stephen Sprunk writes:

On 04-Mar-12 13:20, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 18:46:40 on Sun, 4 Mar 2012,
Phil remarked:
Un-manned petrol stations are quite common on the continent. Tescos are
pay at pump only at night.

On the Continent? I've done many pay-at-pump transactions at Tesco in UK
during the day.

There are two ways to parse the above quote:

1. Tesco offers pay-at-the-pump at night only.

2. At night, Tesco only offers pay-at-the-pump.

I assumed he meant the latter, i.e. that pay-at-the-pump is also
available during the day in addition to some other option(s).

Number 2 is what I meant.

Phil

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 22:41:14 +0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
wrote:
No-one ever tips in pubs.
I had no idea.

If you want to "tip" the usual approach is to buy the staff a drink,
often for consumption later. Though it's rare to do this.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

In message , at 21:59:48 on Sun, 4 Mar 2012,
Phil remarked:
most firms will now only accept payment by debit card.

I find plenty will accept a credit card.
But very few will accept a cheque.

That's true, but there's a local shop we go to regularly which does.
It's only the larger chain stores which have "banned" them by decree.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 16:49:52 on Sun, 4 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
There's always a small risk, and sometimes the ticket vendor will make a
[mobile] phone call if a particular cardholder raises suspicions.

If mobile service is available, why not just authorize every card and
avoid the risk of being sued for discrimination--which will cost far,
far more (even if you win) than losing the occasional fare?

Because authorising transactions with a voice call is time consuming,
and may not even be possible as a routine thing.

and people with credit cards and bank accounts that allow overdrafts
usually do pay these off, the only class where there's a serious worry
is the no-overdraft debit card holders.

Some of our debit cards allow overdraft, while others don't; that is an
option by the account holder.

In the UK an overdraft is a property of the account, not the card. In
the US, can you have a bank account that allows an overdraft if you
write a check, but a card that won't allow that same account to go
overdrawn (I could see some uses for such an arrangement).

There is no way to know by looking at the card number whether it does.

That's what we *could* do in the UK, by recognising a card as "Solo" or
"Electron". Now that they are branded as "VISA debit", it's probably not
possible to tell, although the cards are still incapable (in theory) of
pushing the bank account into overdraft. What we haven't established in
this conversation yet is how the banks achieve that Indian Rope Trick if
people buy something from (eg) a vending machine that isn't online.

Given the cheap and ubiquitous mobile data networks, there is no excuse
for not being able to do online authorization.

They aren't cheap and ubiquitous enough. In particular, the equipment
would need replacing (not just simple upgrading).

It gets replaced every few years anyway, and the cost of adding mobile
data to them should be trivial.

It doesn't seem to work like that. The current machines are relatively
new, dating from 2006. The previous generation of machine lasted almost
20 years in service (1986-2006).

I don't believe data
networks are ubiquitous in the USA either, if the very spotty mobile
phone coverage more than a few miles from major cities and highways is
anything to go by.

The main problem in the US is multiple incompatible networks, and it
should be better overseas where everyone uses GSM. Still, US mobile
coverage is pretty good; even a decade ago 96% of the US population was
covered, and nearly all Interstate highways are. Rural areas and lesser
highways are being covered rapidly, as would rail lines if a non-trivial
amount of passenger traffic existed.

That's not our experience in the UK, where people are famous for making
calls "on the train". Coverage is often very bad, despite percentage
rates appearing high because areas of high population are flooded, and
places where people don't live (highways and railways lines) get
neglected especially if the geography is against them (tunnels,
cuttings, valleys etc).
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 21:58:20 on Sun, 4 Mar 2012,
Phil remarked:
AFAIK Tesco do not have filling station on the continent, they are a UK
supermarket.

There are a surprising number of Tesco stores overseas (and not just in
Calais) eg: http://www.itesco.sk/
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 16:27:07 on Sun, 4 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Un-manned petrol stations are quite common on the continent. Tescos are
pay at pump only at night.

A judiciously placed comma would assist the readability.

On the Continent? I've done many pay-at-pump transactions at Tesco in UK
during the day.

There are two ways to parse the above quote:

1. Tesco offers pay-at-the-pump at night only.

2. At night, Tesco only offers pay-at-the-pump.

I assumed he meant the latter, i.e. that pay-at-the-pump is also
available during the day in addition to some other option(s).

Then there's the confusing association of Continent and Tesco.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 23:06:12 on Sun, 4 Mar 2012,
Phil remarked:
Un-manned petrol stations are quite common on the continent. Tescos are
pay at pump only at night.

On the Continent? I've done many pay-at-pump transactions at Tesco in UK
during the day.

There are two ways to parse the above quote:

1. Tesco offers pay-at-the-pump at night only.

2. At night, Tesco only offers pay-at-the-pump.

I assumed he meant the latter, i.e. that pay-at-the-pump is also
available during the day in addition to some other option(s).

Number 2 is what I meant.

ASDA operates like that too.
--
Roland Perry

On 04-Mar-12 02:51, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:45:38 on Sat, 3 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Pretty much everyone qualifies for a credit card, at least in the US.
Those with poor credit scores get a low limit and high interest rate,
but they can still get a card. If nothing else, they can get a
"secured" credit card. (That type of card may be unique to the US.)

Last time I looked into this, about half the UK's adult population is
regarded as "not credit worthy". Although it's easier to get store
credit, mail order catalogue credit, and "Hire purchase credit" for
durable items, than a credit card for general use.

That's how it was in the US until our banks figured out that high-risk
customers were more profitable, on average, than low-risk customers.

This was around the same time the same banks changed from fearing people
wouldn't pay off their mortgages to fearing they _would_: foreclosure
was much more profitable than lending money at low rates to people who
always pay their bills on time.

A lot of credit card holders use them in effect as charge cards, as a
substitute for the "monthly credit" that the middle classes used to get
from tradesmen.

I've never heard of "monthly credit", but I'm young enough that I got my
first credit card at 15. OTOH, if you look at my credit report, I've
had one account open since before I was born

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking