On 19-Mar-12 11:20, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:10:46 on Mon, 19 Mar
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
(On another note, I flew Transatlantic with such an airline last year,
and did wonder how they cope with unaccompanied minors, who almost
certainly won't have any cards).

Just tell minors to use their cash to buy a gift card before they board.

Eventually you may come to accept that gift cards like that are only
available in the USA. It's been mentioned half a dozen times already,
but maybe if we keep saying it you'll believe it.

They can buy the cards at the airport before they leave on an eastbound
transatlantic (or westbound transpacific) flight.

How long do you think it'll take until such cards are available at the
other end of those flights? It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

I suspect the only reason they don't _already_ exist is the cost of the
EMV chip required by many European merchants. However, that will have
to be solved in the US market in a few years as well, as gift cards are
an established (and profitable) product here that won't be going away.

Even ignoring that, minors certainly _can_ have cards; I got my first at
15 and could have gotten one sooner if there had been a reason to. In
theory, a minor can't be the _primary_ cardholder since they aren't
considered competent to execute contracts, but there is no minimum age
for a secondary card. And some banks don't ask the applicant's age, as
in my case, so a minor can indeed get their own card from such banks.

That's most likely another USA thing,

Do European banks not have the concept of secondary cards? Each gets
their own card with their own name on it, and they're linked to a common
account, but secondary card holders are _not_ signatories to the card
contract and therefore are not legally liable for payment--which means
they can be minors.

Not asking applicants' age in the first place is risky, but there are
lots of stupid banks out there--or who know some applicants will be
underage and are willing to take the risk in order to buy the loyalty of
future adult customers before other banks are paying attention.

and a bit of a sledgehammer to crack this nut.

Obviously, one wouldn't open an account for a single trip. However,
millions of teens _already_ have cards, including minors, and can use
them on said trip. Those who are flying regularly, particularly
internationally, are probably _most_ likely to have cards.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On 19-Mar-12 11:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:10:46 on Mon, 19 Mar
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Even if that wasn't EMV, it's just a matter of time until someone
figures out how to do it.

In the mean time, it's so unlikely, especially if the objective is
stealing a few train tickets, that we can discount it.

Unlikely? It's a certainty. I wouldn't be surprised if someone has
already done so and just hasn't publicized that fact--for obvious
reasons.

It's not the kind of secret that would keep very well.

There are plenty of reasons for everyone (both the criminals and the
banks) to keep such a success very, very secret.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:10:54 +0000 (UTC), John Levine
wrote:

I wonder if any if any passenger ships that cross the Atlantic Ocean
offer such a service, such as Cunard's Queens.

Many cruise ships offer incredibly overpriced cell service with satellite uplink.
Prices are upwards of 2 quid/minute.

R's,
John


Like the Good Ole Days for wired "international" calls!

NZ to Aussie: 3 quid/minute with a 3-minute minimum in the mid-60's
when a Pound was a helluva lot of money.

On 19/03/2012 21:52, Nobody wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:10:54 +0000 (UTC), John
wrote:

I wonder if any if any passenger ships that cross the Atlantic Ocean
offer such a service, such as Cunard's Queens.

Many cruise ships offer incredibly overpriced cell service with satellite uplink.
Prices are upwards of 2 quid/minute.

R's,
John


Like the Good Ole Days for wired "international" calls!

NZ to Aussie: 3 quid/minute with a 3-minute minimum in the mid-60's
when a Pound was a helluva lot of money.

That's expensive, it was a pound a minute (off-peak) UK - Kenya at that
time.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

On Mar 19, 7:40*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 19:03:06
on Mon 19 Mar 2012, Clive remarked:
[...]
I'm not too sure about that, remember everyone with a computer using
fake cards to decode satellite, until I believe it became outlawed, now
no-one hears anything but it still goes on.

SkyTV hacks are well known. And what's interesting to observers in the
security industry is the "early adopters" of such things, not the "long
tail".

NDS VideoGuard encryption (BSkyB) is pretty secure. It was the SECA
Mediaguard encryption used by ONdigital / ITV digital that was very
widely taken advantage of. (Lots of entertaining rumours that NDS - a
News Corp company - might have helped to break it, then release
information about how to defeat it into the 'hacker community'.)

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 18:18:40 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:
Because I'm not convinced that accepting a debit card which passes
the
C&P PIN, but is later declined because of lack of funds, is at the
retailer's risk.

I am pretty sure that if the transaction is above the floor limit and
no auth was carried out it is.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:43:41 +0000, Clive
wrote:
As different shops have different "floor limits" this can only
apply to
the amount of guarantee by the bank, otherwise all cards would need
to
be authorised.

In some shops they are. And in some, e.g. on board trains, almost
none are.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 17:28:32 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:
NDS VideoGuard encryption (BSkyB) is pretty secure.

The old analogue VideoCrypt system wasn't and was widely hacked.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 15:57:57 -0500, Stephen Sprunk
wrote:
Do European banks not have the concept of secondary cards? Each
gets
their own card with their own name on it, and they're linked to a
common
account, but secondary card holders are _not_ signatories to the
card
contract and therefore are not legally liable for payment--which
means
they can be minors.

There are "authorised user" cards which are basically that. I had
one on my parents' account (strictly for use with permission only or
for emergencies) but I can't remember how old I was when I got it -
might have been 16 or 18.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

In message , at 15:57:57 on Mon, 19 Mar
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
(On another note, I flew Transatlantic with such an airline last year,
and did wonder how they cope with unaccompanied minors, who almost
certainly won't have any cards).

Just tell minors to use their cash to buy a gift card before they board.

Eventually you may come to accept that gift cards like that are only
available in the USA. It's been mentioned half a dozen times already,
but maybe if we keep saying it you'll believe it.

They can buy the cards at the airport before they leave on an eastbound
transatlantic (or westbound transpacific) flight.

Some people start transatlantic trips from Europe. Strange, I know.

How long do you think it'll take until such cards are available at the
other end of those flights? It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

While a lot of US-invented financial initiatives do find there way over
here (even sub-prime mortgages) I'm not sure those giftcards will. It
seems to be important to the various stores that they are "tied" to a
particular outlet, or even a particular range of goods, and so the
current extensive (non-credit card) mag-stripe gift card scheme may
continue indefinitely.

Do European banks not have the concept of secondary cards? Each gets
their own card with their own name on it, and they're linked to a common
account, but secondary card holders are _not_ signatories to the card
contract and therefore are not legally liable for payment--which means
they can be minors.

I think secondary card holders in the UK are *jointly* liable, therefore
as a result there's not much point in having a secondary card rather
than a 'primary' one in your own name.

Obviously, one wouldn't open an account for a single trip. However,
millions of teens _already_ have cards, including minors, and can use
them on said trip.

UMs can be any age. A few of the teens many have debit cards, but it's
very unusual in the UK for under 16's.

Those who are flying regularly, particularly
internationally, are probably _most_ likely to have cards.

They are more likely, I agree, especially after they've been caught out
on the first trip.

--
Roland Perry