Richard wrote:

It would be impractical to ask for the PIN on a bus, at least in
London... I wonder whether there is a way for the retailer to accept
higher risk in return for never (or much more rarely) requiring a PIN,
especially as no real goods are involved?

That might make sense for things like buses, because the alternative,
having to find cash if it declines, negates the entire concept.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

In message , at 11:42:39 on Sat, 1 Dec 2012,
Mizter T remarked:
The OnePulse card was specifically designed so that the payWave and
Oyster elements of the card didn't conflict,

It might just mean that there's no interference when used with an
only-Oyster or only-Paywave reader. Richard says that there's "trouble"
if you have Oyster and Paywave adjacent on different cards.

so my understanding is that they are in at least one sense 'connected'.
(Curious why you think such a thing is almost impossible to believe?)

Sounds like it could break every crypto rule in the book, for both
halves, if it was a data connection.

But I suppose it's possible that the first one to feel itself being
energised could switch the other one off.

then it's like
having an Oyster and a PayWave in the same wallet, which already
causes trouble. My wallet, with Oyster, ITSO and a Spanish one (not
sure what standard that one is) is guaranteed to fail!

Well, what we can be sure of is that no-one at TfL could possibly have
considered this scenario...

I'm sure they've thought of it, but the answer might be "sorry you can't
use them". iirc it was touch[1] and go that the Onepulse project carried
on (ie that any of the cards were replaced when they expired).

[1] Sorry.

--
Roland Perry

In message

..net, at 12:27:25 on Sat, 1 Dec 2012, Neil Williams
remarked:

A market for tin foil wallets outside that of the paranoid?

An excellent idea. Keep it under your hat (tin-foil, obviously).
--
Roland Perry

In message
, at
02:52:21 on Sat, 1 Dec 2012, Jack remarked:
I guess all the OnePulse cards will have to be replaced with non-
Oyster visa cards and all current cardholders instructed not to use
their current OnePulses on buses?

Actually I'd prefer it to be non-Paywave, if there has to be such a
decision.

ie an Oyster I can also use as a credit card elsewhere (eg buying and
collecting ToD).

There ought to be more dual-purpose cards, like a Tesco Credit card and
combined Clubcard, or a Sainsburys Credit Card and combined Nectar Card.
But I suspect the shops make too much money from people who forget to
take their loyalty card with them (and don't go back later to add the
points).
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message
, at
02:52:21 on Sat, 1 Dec 2012, Jack remarked:
I guess all the OnePulse cards will have to be replaced with non-
Oyster visa cards and all current cardholders instructed not to use
their current OnePulses on buses?

Actually I'd prefer it to be non-Paywave, if there has to be such a
decision.

ie an Oyster I can also use as a credit card elsewhere (eg buying and
collecting ToD).

There ought to be more dual-purpose cards, like a Tesco Credit card and
combined Clubcard, or a Sainsburys Credit Card and combined Nectar Card.
But I suspect the shops make too much money from people who forget to take
their loyalty card with them (and don't go back later to add the points).

I would have thought that people forgetting to take their card is somewhat
lost in all the noise of the other possible "mistakes" (both positive and
negative) that affect a supermarket's bottom line.

tim

In message , at 13:45:29 on Sat, 1 Dec
2012, tim..... remarked:
There ought to be more dual-purpose cards, like a Tesco Credit card
and combined Clubcard, or a Sainsburys Credit Card and combined
Nectar Card. But I suspect the shops make too much money from people
who forget to take their loyalty card with them (and don't go back
later to add the points).

I would have thought that people forgetting to take their card is
somewhat lost in all the noise of the other possible "mistakes" (both
positive and negative) that affect a supermarket's bottom line.

Every little helps.
--
Roland Perry

Mizter T wrote:

Fair enough, but what will happen (soon) on a London Bus: which of the
two elements will "win"; or will it refuse to pick either, claiming you
are trying to use more than one card at once?

I'd imagine the Oyster element would 'win', but lets wait and see.

What happens if the Oyster is out of credit? Does it automatically debit
the PayWave half instead? What happens if your Oyster has insufficient
credit for an all-zones tube journey? Does it decide which element to
charge it to when you touch out? What happens if you make another journey
and hit your daily cap? Does it charge the two journeys to Oyster and a
fractional journey to reach the cap to PayWave? Sounds like coding all the
corner cases could be tricky...

Theo

In message , at 21:23:14 on Sat,
1 Dec 2012, Theo Markettos remarked:
Fair enough, but what will happen (soon) on a London Bus: which of the
two elements will "win"; or will it refuse to pick either, claiming you
are trying to use more than one card at once?

I'd imagine the Oyster element would 'win', but lets wait and see.

What happens if the Oyster is out of credit?

Most of the Onepulse Oyster cards will have auto-topup enabled I would
have thought. They were obtained by early adopters (of the dual
functionality) and it's unclear why such credit-card loving folks would
depend on manual topup.

Does it automatically debit
the PayWave half instead? What happens if your Oyster has insufficient
credit for an all-zones tube journey? Does it decide which element to
charge it to when you touch out? What happens if you make another journey
and hit your daily cap? Does it charge the two journeys to Oyster and a
fractional journey to reach the cap to PayWave? Sounds like coding all the
corner cases could be tricky...

It's far too ambitious to expect the card to switch on the fly between
modes as the result of the sort of criteria you mention. It's going to
be designed to pick one of the two modes and stick with that.

Although if it is on manual topup and the Oyster element is empty, it
would be useful for it to always pick Paywave (irrespective of what it
might have picked had there been plenty of credit).

But if the answer is "the card won't work", then no doubt it will be
fixed by publicising the circumstances where it doesn't work, rather
than providing a complex technological fix.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 12:52:21 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:42:39 on Sat, 1 Dec 2012,
Mizter T remarked:
The OnePulse card was specifically designed so that the payWave and
Oyster elements of the card didn't conflict,

It might just mean that there's no interference when used with an
only-Oyster or only-Paywave reader. Richard says that there's "trouble"
if you have Oyster and Paywave adjacent on different cards.

Yes, I've seen that at the new gateline at Waterloo, and at St P.,
only two observations though, need more really.

[Mizter T]
so my understanding is that they are in at least one sense 'connected'.
(Curious why you think such a thing is almost impossible to believe?)

[Roland Perry]
Sounds like it could break every crypto rule in the book, for both
halves, if it was a data connection.

That's what I had in mind but Roland put it more succinctly - I meant
that it's hard to imagine Barclays being able to modify the Oyster
part of the card and especially the PayWave part.

But I suppose it's possible that the first one to feel itself being
energised could switch the other one off.

In the case of OnePulse, you'd want the Oyster part to have priority
somehow, but only in London. All (separate) cards seem to respond to
a reader -- by the time a card knows it can't be used (like my Málaga
one) it seems to be too late to prevent interference with the others.
I just can't see how all that is really possible.

[Me]
then it's like
having an Oyster and a PayWave in the same wallet, which already
causes trouble. My wallet, with Oyster, ITSO and a Spanish one (not
sure what standard that one is) is guaranteed to fail!

[Mizter T]
Well, what we can be sure of is that no-one at TfL could possibly have
considered this scenario...

[Roland Perry]
I'm sure they've thought of it, but the answer might be "sorry you can't
use them". iirc it was touch and go that the Onepulse project carried
on (ie that any of the cards were replaced when they expired).

It's a reasonable enough answer, but if the majority of the cards in a
wallet/purse are now going to wake up and say hello it might not be a
good enough answer in future. PayWave and ITSO will be the new
neighbours more and more.

Richard.

In message , at 10:51:27 on
Sun, 2 Dec 2012, Richard remarked:
then it's like
having an Oyster and a PayWave in the same wallet, which already
causes trouble. My wallet, with Oyster, ITSO and a Spanish one (not
sure what standard that one is) is guaranteed to fail!

[Mizter T]
Well, what we can be sure of is that no-one at TfL could possibly have
considered this scenario...

[Roland Perry]
I'm sure they've thought of it,

By "this scenario" I meant possible issues with OnePulse, not more
general issues of multiple cards in a wallet.

but the answer might be "sorry you can't
use them". iirc it was touch and go that the Onepulse project carried
on (ie that any of the cards were replaced when they expired).

It's a reasonable enough answer, but if the majority of the cards in a
wallet/purse are now going to wake up and say hello it might not be a
good enough answer in future. PayWave and ITSO will be the new
neighbours more and more.

For a while the only two proximity cards in my wallet were Oyster and an
access card for one of my clients' front doors. The Oyster would
complain, but the front door didn't.

Nowadays, I have a much wider range of such cards, including at least
three Paywave enabled credit cards, a "Real" Oyster, as well as the
OnePulse, five ITSO cards, and a Nottingham City Transport bus card
(which is neither ITSO nor Oyster).

I'm unlikely to leave the house with all of them at once though!

Of course, people want to put this sort of functionality into mobile
phones too, but the problem there would seem to be: will it be Paywave,
ITSO, or some third incompatible technology; and how can they
realistically make a proximity phone useful if it only hosts just one
application (currently not even ITSO cards from the same issuer - eg
Stagecoach - are interoperable).
--
Roland Perry