In message , at 20:02:52 on
Thu, 29 Nov 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:

I have read that card reading speed
specs have had to be relaxed by TfL and also that the security
requirements imposed by the Banks were changed part way through the
development process.

Normally the banks want a random selection of "waves" to be backed up by
a PIN, which is presumably difficult on a bus.

I know next to nothing about how Pay Wave / EMV card security works.

This is what one of my card issuers says: "MBNA has added layers of
security to their cards. For example, contactless cards cannot be used
until a PIN is entered on first use; payments are limited to up to £15
per transaction; and customers will occasionally be asked to enter their
PIN number to ensure the transactions are valid."

The first one is clearly to stop cards "lost in the post" being used as
Paywave, £15 is quite low (some foreign cards are up to $100), and it's
the latter which is difficult on buses. When Paywave was first
introduced the "occasionally" was claimed to be about 1:10.

However EMV is used for low value transactions by a growing number of
retailers without PIN validation. I assume that whatever is deemed
reasonable for retailers would broadly be OK for bus travel given a
PAYG fare is only £1.35. You'd have to be going some to be able to
rip off anything like a large sum of money ;-)

If the "relaxation" referred to earlier is never having to type in a
PIN, there's a danger that a lost/stolen card becomes a "free season
ticket" for the lucky recipient. Unless the terminals have a blacklist
of such cards, and maybe implementing that is what's causing the delay?

I am also pretty sure that I read somewhere that the initial launch of
the bus product will NOT include capping.

To be fair, until you can cap both tube and bus onto one card, the
market for a bus-only cap is rather small.

Yes only 6m passenger journeys per day on London's buses and only 99%
of those trips use contactless cards. Clearly PAYG is a subset of
that total but there is still considerable volume that might well find
bus only validation a viable option.

The audience is people who have so far not got an Oyster (so that rules
out most London-based frequent travellers) and for whom getting an
Oyster is a barrier (so that includes tourists, and yes I know you can
get one fairly easily but there's the issue of getting back your deposit
and unused credit while running for a plane at Heathrow), or who only
wants to do one or two trips that day, or who doesn't mid being charged
above the normal daily cap.

A TfL rail and bus cap will be more attractive but that is clearly a
later phase. I am unsure when National Rail will be added even though
TfL kit exists at all the relevant stations.

I suspect that will depress take up.

Sounds like short term it's another "tourist tax" for people who haven't
got an Oyster.

No it does not. It sounds like the first phase of the project.
Oyster's introduction was phased and progressive and the move to EMV
is a completely different way of handling transactions for travel on
TfL services.

Although without a cap the system isn't doing very much, it's simply
collecting individual ad-hoc payments just like coffee shops have been
doing for years.

It is not remotely surprising that TfL are being cautious in their
approach to introducing this technology. It will only take a few
nasty "errors" that receive disproportionate media attention for the
concept to be potentially damaged. I don't imagine anyone with any
sense would countenance a rash "big bang" approach to introducing
complex, unfamiliar technology.

The technology of the terminals should be familiar enough, but I agree
that the retrospective capping (which they aren't doing yet, obviously)
will be fun.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 09:54:56 on Fri, 30 Nov
2012, martin_petrov remarked:
This could be why my attempt to get on a bus this morning caused a bad
BEEP from the machine and the message "more than one card trying to be
used at the same time" - I have in my Oystercard wallet, 1 Oystercard,
and 1 contactless debit card. Am I going to have to use different wallets
now to avoid this? I've only just 'rationalised' my wallet far enough to
have just a debit card, and Oystercard and work entry card with Oystercard
wallet. I'll be pained to change this all again!

I wonder what happens if you try to touch-in with a Barclays "Onepulse"
Oyster card, which now has Paywave added. Something to try next time I'm
in London!
--
Roland Perry

On 30/11/2012 10:16, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 09:54:56 on Fri, 30 Nov
2012, martin_petrov remarked:
This could be why my attempt to get on a bus this morning caused a bad
BEEP from the machine and the message "more than one card trying to be
used at the same time" - I have in my Oystercard wallet, 1 Oystercard,
and 1 contactless debit card. Am I going to have to use different wallets
now to avoid this? I've only just 'rationalised' my wallet far enough to
have just a debit card, and Oystercard and work entry card with
Oystercard
wallet. I'll be pained to change this all again!

I wonder what happens if you try to touch-in with a Barclays "Onepulse"
Oyster card, which now has Paywave added. Something to try next time I'm
in London!

Barclaycard OnePulse cards always had payWave functionality, it's not a
recent addition - that was part of the original selling point.

In message , at 12:28:41 on Fri, 30 Nov
2012, Mizter T remarked:

I wonder what happens if you try to touch-in with a Barclays "Onepulse"
Oyster card, which now has Paywave added. Something to try next time I'm
in London!

Barclaycard OnePulse cards always had payWave functionality, it's not a
recent addition - that was part of the original selling point.

Fair enough, but what will happen (soon) on a London Bus: which of the
two elements will "win"; or will it refuse to pick either, claiming you
are trying to use more than one card at once?
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 12:28:41 on Fri, 30 Nov
2012, Mizter T remarked:

Barclaycard OnePulse cards always had payWave functionality, it's not a
recent addition - that was part of the original selling point.

Fair enough, but what will happen (soon) on a London Bus: which of the
two elements will "win"; or will it refuse to pick either, claiming you
are trying to use more than one card at once?

Unless the two elements are connected and can decide between
themselves, which is almost impossible to believe, then it's like
having an Oyster and a PayWave in the same wallet, which already
causes trouble. My wallet, with Oyster, ITSO and a Spanish one (not
sure what standard that one is) is guaranteed to fail!

Richard.

On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 01:57:12 +0000, Steve Fitzgerald
] wrote:

My understanding is (from being involved with a group that accepts cards
and gets all the card acceptor bumph) that this Pay Wave will only work
for a number (ISTR about 5 or 6) of P-W transactions before it then
requires a PIN input. [...]

Now, how this works with the bus scenario is an interesting exercise for
the reader but could explain some of the 'issues' that have been alluded
to.

It would be impractical to ask for the PIN on a bus, at least in
London... I wonder whether there is a way for the retailer to accept
higher risk in return for never (or much more rarely) requiring a PIN,
especially as no real goods are involved?

Richard.

On Nov 30, 12:44*pm, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:28:41 on Fri, 30 Nov
2012, Mizter T remarked:

I wonder what happens if you try to touch-in with a Barclays "Onepulse"
Oyster card, which now has Paywave added. Something to try next time I'm
in London!

Barclaycard OnePulse cards always had payWave functionality, it's not a
recent addition - that was part of the original selling point.

Fair enough, but what will happen (soon) on a London Bus: which of the
two elements will "win"; or will it refuse to pick either, claiming you
are trying to use more than one card at once?
--
Roland Perry

I guess all the OnePulse cards will have to be replaced with non-
Oyster visa cards and all current cardholders instructed not to use
their current OnePulses on buses?

On 30/11/2012 12:44, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 12:28:41 on Fri, 30 Nov
2012, Mizter T remarked:

I wonder what happens if you try to touch-in with a Barclays "Onepulse"
Oyster card, which now has Paywave added. Something to try next time I'm
in London!

Barclaycard OnePulse cards always had payWave functionality, it's not
a recent addition - that was part of the original selling point.

Fair enough, but what will happen (soon) on a London Bus: which of the
two elements will "win"; or will it refuse to pick either, claiming you
are trying to use more than one card at once?

I'd imagine the Oyster element would 'win', but lets wait and see.

By the by, the OnePulse card had been taken off the market by
Barclaycard (for new applicants) when this whole issue was last
discussed - I see it's now offered again (I don't know how long it was
off the market for):
http://www.barclaycard.co.uk/onepulse

On 01/12/2012 10:48, Richard wrote:

On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 12:28:41 on Fri, 30 Nov
2012, Mizter T remarked:

Barclaycard OnePulse cards always had payWave functionality, it's not a
recent addition - that was part of the original selling point.

Fair enough, but what will happen (soon) on a London Bus: which of the
two elements will "win"; or will it refuse to pick either, claiming you
are trying to use more than one card at once?

Unless the two elements are connected and can decide between
themselves, which is almost impossible to believe,

The OnePulse card was specifically designed so that the payWave and
Oyster elements of the card didn't conflict, so my understanding is that
they are in at least one sense 'connected'. (Curious why you think such
a thing is almost impossible to believe?)

then it's like
having an Oyster and a PayWave in the same wallet, which already
causes trouble. My wallet, with Oyster, ITSO and a Spanish one (not
sure what standard that one is) is guaranteed to fail!

Well, what we can be sure of is that no-one at TfL could possibly have
considered this scenario...

Richard wrote:

Unless the two elements are connected and can decide between
themselves, which is almost impossible to believe, then it's like
having an Oyster and a PayWave in the same wallet, which already
causes trouble. My wallet, with Oyster, ITSO and a Spanish one (not
sure what standard that one is) is guaranteed to fail!

Yet mine, with an Oyster and two Paywaves, works fine.

Is it feasible to make it choose an Oyster over other cards also present?
It will be a definite hassle compared with what went before not just to be
able to whack your wallet on the barrier.

A market for tin foil wallets outside that of the paranoid?

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.