In message , at 12:11:34 on
Sun, 3 Aug 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:

The problem with extending Oyster is that it has a very finite number of
price-zones and it's possible these were exhausted when extended to
Shenfield.

I asked TfL's ticketing people, via a Twitter "chat" session, if they
would technically cope with the indicated TSGN franchise plans to
extent Oyster beyond the zones. They said they could. Unfortunately I
can't send you a technical specification to prove this

Do you have them, or a relevant summary?

so I imagine my statement will go on your vapourware list of probably
untrue nonsense ;-)

Vapourware isn't stuff we believe is a lie, or that will never happen;
it's things which have been over-optimistically and yet firmly
announced, but keep slipping (it's possible, after some practice, to
spot the inevitability of this for specific announcements).

Although many do eventually slip so far they get overtaken by events and
hence never see the light of day.

This suggests there is some system capacity left but I imagine there
may also be assumptions about pricing and keeping stations priced on a
consistent basis outside the zones.

How many extra places are TSGN expecting to cover? [1]

When Oyster zones were last discussed here (about 18 months ago) it was
in terms of 12 zones already used and a maximum of 15.

If Oyster PAYG is to extend to Dartford that will solve a great many
problems although it might reduce South Eastern's penalty fare income.
It's hardly likely to be a huge problem given Oyster based Freedom
Passes *are* valid to Dartford so there must be some ticketing logic
in the system that allows those cards to be read (I assuming the gates
at Dartford *do* read them - happy to be corrected if actual practice
is different).

It's not about being able to read the cards, but having enough 'zones'
to cope with all the different charging possibilities. Although that
assumes that all 'outlier' stations need a zone of their own.

Are current Oyster fares from central London to Harold Wood and
Brentwood identical (a "mid-Essex" zone) and if so what would Oyster
charge for a journey from Harold Wood to Brentwood?

Any expansion plans are (conceptually if not for implementation) as
simple as there being many more sets of stations like Harold Wood and
Brentwood identifiable so they can work out the right fare to charge
from Shenfield variously to Harold Wood, and new places like Luton
Airport and Dartford and perhaps other similar ones just outside the
current limit like Swanley, Esher and Hinchley Wood.

[1] Later... Apparently Greater Anglia are committed to several, viz:
Theobalds Grove, Waltham Cross, Cheshunt (inside the exiting zones)
Brentwood, Shenfield (already delivered, outside the zones) plus
Broxbourne, Rye House, St Margarets, Ware and Hertford East (outside
the zones).

Govia Thameslink Railway (aka TSGN) are saying they'll extend Oyster
"as far as Epsom, Gatwick Airport, Luton Airport, Welwyn Garden City
and Hertford North" which if we count intermediary stations is quite
a few.
--
Roland Perry

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 3 Aug 2014 07:56:16 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 06:17:35 on
Sun, 3 Aug 2014, Charles Ellson remarked:
Can you use your Oyster card for Pay-as-You-Go from London Bridge to
Tundbridge Wells?

Definitely not.

Not according to anything I can see on the NR website (assuming it is
up to date). There doesn't seem to be anything definite announced
since e.g. "A spokesman for Southeastern confirmed: “We’re in
discussions with Transport for London to extend Oyster into Dartford."
[Kent Online 21 Feb 2014]

Tunbridge Wells being even further away from Greater London and AFAIAA
with a lower thicko count (Dartford seems to have a particular problem
with people unaware that Oyster has geographical limits) might not be
so far up the list for providing Oyster.

The problem with extending Oyster is that it has a very finite number of
price-zones and it's possible these were exhausted when extended to
Shenfield.

I asked TfL's ticketing people, via a Twitter "chat" session, if they
would technically cope with the indicated TSGN franchise plans to
extent Oyster beyond the zones. They said they could. Unfortunately I
can't send you a technical specification to prove this so I imagine my
statement will go on your vapourware list of probably untrue nonsense
;-)

This suggests there is some system capacity left but I imagine there
may also be assumptions about pricing and keeping stations priced on a
consistent basis outside the zones.

If Oyster PAYG is to extend to Dartford that will solve a great many
problems although it might reduce South Eastern's penalty fare income.
It's hardly likely to be a huge problem given Oyster based Freedom
Passes *are* valid to Dartford so there must be some ticketing logic
in the system that allows those cards to be read (I assuming the gates
at Dartford *do* read them - happy to be corrected if actual practice
is different).

I don't think the gates at Dartford do read Freedom passes. After the gate
wouldn't read it, I had to show mine to a person, who let me through.

Are current Oyster fares from central London to Harold Wood and
Brentwood identical (a "mid-Essex" zone) and if so what would Oyster
charge for a journey from Harold Wood to Brentwood?

Poor example as Harold Wood is within Greater London. The single fare finder gives results that put Brentwood "beyond" zone 9.

The problem is the allocation of special zones for NR destinations beyond zone 6. That eats up the additional zones that Oyster can cope with. If TfL pricing could be applied to the extensions then there would be three existing zones that could be tacked on to each line out of London.

In message , at
11:32:32 on Sun, 3 Aug 2014, remarked:
Are current Oyster fares from central London to Harold Wood and
Brentwood identical (a "mid-Essex" zone) and if so what would Oyster
charge for a journey from Harold Wood to Brentwood?

Poor example as Harold Wood is within Greater London.

I meant Brentwood and Shenfield, sorry.

The single fare finder gives results that put Brentwood "beyond" zone
9.

And Shenfield "way beyond"?

The problem is the allocation of special zones for NR destinations
beyond zone 6. That eats up the additional zones that Oyster can cope
with.

How many zones can it cope with? Have you heard 15 too?

If TfL pricing could be applied to the extensions then there would be
three existing zones that could be tacked on to each line out of London.

That makes sense with the 15 minus 12 I mentioned earlier. But how does
Oyster handle fares from one of those "three on line A out of London"
and one of those "three on line B out of London"? Or doesn't it matter
if for example every "first station on one of the lines" is the same
price, and every "second station" and every "third station". In effect
three extra zones circling the Capital.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 11:17:23 -0500, Recliner
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 3 Aug 2014 07:56:16 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 06:17:35 on
Sun, 3 Aug 2014, Charles Ellson remarked:
Can you use your Oyster card for Pay-as-You-Go from London Bridge to
Tundbridge Wells?

Definitely not.

Not according to anything I can see on the NR website (assuming it is
up to date). There doesn't seem to be anything definite announced
since e.g. "A spokesman for Southeastern confirmed: ?We?re in
discussions with Transport for London to extend Oyster into Dartford."
[Kent Online 21 Feb 2014]

Tunbridge Wells being even further away from Greater London and AFAIAA
with a lower thicko count (Dartford seems to have a particular problem
with people unaware that Oyster has geographical limits) might not be
so far up the list for providing Oyster.

The problem with extending Oyster is that it has a very finite number of
price-zones and it's possible these were exhausted when extended to
Shenfield.

I asked TfL's ticketing people, via a Twitter "chat" session, if they
would technically cope with the indicated TSGN franchise plans to
extent Oyster beyond the zones. They said they could. Unfortunately I
can't send you a technical specification to prove this so I imagine my
statement will go on your vapourware list of probably untrue nonsense
;-)

This suggests there is some system capacity left but I imagine there
may also be assumptions about pricing and keeping stations priced on a
consistent basis outside the zones.

If Oyster PAYG is to extend to Dartford that will solve a great many
problems although it might reduce South Eastern's penalty fare income.
It's hardly likely to be a huge problem given Oyster based Freedom
Passes *are* valid to Dartford so there must be some ticketing logic
in the system that allows those cards to be read (I assuming the gates
at Dartford *do* read them - happy to be corrected if actual practice
is different).

I don't think the gates at Dartford do read Freedom passes. After the gate
wouldn't read it, I had to show mine to a person, who let me through.

Roughly comparable to 65+ bus passes used away from their home area ?
I see that 60+ Oyster cards are also valid to/via Dartford.

On Sun, 3 Aug 2014 13:29:25 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 01:15:34 +0100, "
wrote:

Hello all,

Can you use your Oyster card for Pay-as-You-Go from London Bridge to
Tundbridge Wells?

Not according to anything I can see on the NR website (assuming it is
up to date). There doesn't seem to be anything definite announced
since e.g. "A spokesman for Southeastern confirmed: "We're in
discussions with Transport for London to extend Oyster into Dartford."
[Kent Online 21 Feb 2014]

Tunbridge Wells being even further away from Greater London and AFAIAA
with a lower thicko count (Dartford seems to have a particular problem
with people unaware that Oyster has geographical limits

The fact that you can use it go go there by bus

Only on the relevant TfL routes. Conversely, you can't generally use
Oyster within Greater London for non-TfL bus services running between
two stops within GL.
Would the same people also try to redeem Tesco card points in
Sainsburys?

and that it is a convenient
connection point for some Z1-6 to Z1-6 journeys might have something to do
with this

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 11:17:23 -0500, Recliner
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 3 Aug 2014 07:56:16 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 06:17:35 on
Sun, 3 Aug 2014, Charles Ellson remarked:
Can you use your Oyster card for Pay-as-You-Go from London Bridge to
Tundbridge Wells?

Definitely not.

Not according to anything I can see on the NR website (assuming it is
up to date). There doesn't seem to be anything definite announced
since e.g. "A spokesman for Southeastern confirmed: ?We?re in
discussions with Transport for London to extend Oyster into Dartford."
[Kent Online 21 Feb 2014]

Tunbridge Wells being even further away from Greater London and AFAIAA
with a lower thicko count (Dartford seems to have a particular problem
with people unaware that Oyster has geographical limits) might not be
so far up the list for providing Oyster.

The problem with extending Oyster is that it has a very finite number of
price-zones and it's possible these were exhausted when extended to
Shenfield.

I asked TfL's ticketing people, via a Twitter "chat" session, if they
would technically cope with the indicated TSGN franchise plans to
extent Oyster beyond the zones. They said they could. Unfortunately I
can't send you a technical specification to prove this so I imagine my
statement will go on your vapourware list of probably untrue nonsense
;-)

This suggests there is some system capacity left but I imagine there
may also be assumptions about pricing and keeping stations priced on a
consistent basis outside the zones.

If Oyster PAYG is to extend to Dartford that will solve a great many
problems although it might reduce South Eastern's penalty fare income.
It's hardly likely to be a huge problem given Oyster based Freedom
Passes *are* valid to Dartford so there must be some ticketing logic
in the system that allows those cards to be read (I assuming the gates
at Dartford *do* read them - happy to be corrected if actual practice
is different).

I don't think the gates at Dartford do read Freedom passes. After the gate
wouldn't read it, I had to show mine to a person, who let me through.

Roughly comparable to 65+ bus passes used away from their home area ?
I see that 60+ Oyster cards are also valid to/via Dartford.

I think that the 60+ cards have exactly the same benefits as Freedom passes
in the London area, including to places like Dartford just outside the
zones. What they don't get is the buses away from London. And, of course,
you don't (yet) have to be 65 to get a national bus pass.

In article ,
(Charles Ellson) wrote:

Roughly comparable to 65+ bus passes used away from their home area ?

They are not 65+ bus passes but at or above the current female retirement
age, around 62 at present and advancing two months every month.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Colin Rosenstiel wrote

(Charles Ellson) wrote:

Roughly comparable to 65+ bus passes used away from their home area ?

They are not 65+ bus passes but at or above the current female retirement
age, around 62 at present and advancing two months every month.

Female state pension age, which is gradually creeping to 66 (in 2020) and
beyond.

http://new.surreycc.gov.uk/__data/as...r-bus-pass.pdf

under current law State Pension age will increase to 67 between 2034 and
2036 ;
and 68 between 2044 and 2046


--
Mike D

On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 15:25:39 -0500, Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 11:17:23 -0500, Recliner
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 3 Aug 2014 07:56:16 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 06:17:35 on
Sun, 3 Aug 2014, Charles Ellson remarked:
Can you use your Oyster card for Pay-as-You-Go from London Bridge to
Tundbridge Wells?

Definitely not.

Not according to anything I can see on the NR website (assuming it is
up to date). There doesn't seem to be anything definite announced
since e.g. "A spokesman for Southeastern confirmed: ?We?re in
discussions with Transport for London to extend Oyster into Dartford."
[Kent Online 21 Feb 2014]

Tunbridge Wells being even further away from Greater London and AFAIAA
with a lower thicko count (Dartford seems to have a particular problem
with people unaware that Oyster has geographical limits) might not be
so far up the list for providing Oyster.

The problem with extending Oyster is that it has a very finite number of
price-zones and it's possible these were exhausted when extended to
Shenfield.

I asked TfL's ticketing people, via a Twitter "chat" session, if they
would technically cope with the indicated TSGN franchise plans to
extent Oyster beyond the zones. They said they could. Unfortunately I
can't send you a technical specification to prove this so I imagine my
statement will go on your vapourware list of probably untrue nonsense
;-)

This suggests there is some system capacity left but I imagine there
may also be assumptions about pricing and keeping stations priced on a
consistent basis outside the zones.

If Oyster PAYG is to extend to Dartford that will solve a great many
problems although it might reduce South Eastern's penalty fare income.
It's hardly likely to be a huge problem given Oyster based Freedom
Passes *are* valid to Dartford so there must be some ticketing logic
in the system that allows those cards to be read (I assuming the gates
at Dartford *do* read them - happy to be corrected if actual practice
is different).

I don't think the gates at Dartford do read Freedom passes. After the gate
wouldn't read it, I had to show mine to a person, who let me through.

Roughly comparable to 65+ bus passes used away from their home area ?
I see that 60+ Oyster cards are also valid to/via Dartford.

I think that the 60+ cards have exactly the same benefits as Freedom passes
in the London area, including to places like Dartford just outside the
zones.

They won't inevitably be valid on all non-TfL local buses running in
to Greater London. TfL seem to have lost the "exceptions" list from
their website but as well as non-TfL contracted routes within GL which
accepted Oyster and/or Travelcards there were a few (no more than a
couple of dozen IIRC) others specifically listed as unavailable
(presumably those paralleled by a TfL service). You could have a
section of a bus route where a 60+ card is invalid but a Freedom Pass
is because it provides ENCTS entitlement.

What they don't get is the buses away from London. And, of course,
you don't (yet) have to be 65 to get a national bus pass.