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In message , at 15:07:28 on Sat, 14
Mar 2015, Neil Williams remarked: Something's wrong if it's tight. I'm only comfortable if it's so loose it looks untidy. Then there's something wrong with your collars. And there's nothing more distracting than one person turning up in £500 worth of Laurence Llewelyn-Bowen impression. The first thought through many people's minds will be "did he get dressed in the dark and forgot to put on his cufflinks?" Only if they're really uptight about dress. They aren't uptight about dress, more they don't want to be distracted by people making fashion statements when they are supposed to be making serious technical or policy statements. But then I suppose Sir Alan's part of the IT industry was curiously formal compared with the rest of it. Lord Sugar, now, of course. And yes, most of his people who had any contact with the outside world would wear a suit and tie, just like he and Nick still do on "The Apprentice", and most of the male contestants too. Here's the winner of the first series: http://www2.vismedia.co.uk/newslette...05/amstrad.jpg Several of the female contestants dress as masculinely as possible, to avoid people looking at what they are wearing rather than listening to what they are saying. The opposite is a useful tactic in other circumstances, but it's important to dress appropriately for the occasion. And back in the 80's most of the public-facing personal computer people wore suits - although Hermann Hauser pushed the envelope (as they say) with a trademark polo-neck jumper or cravatte underneath much of the time. Just to prove that there were exceptions to that: http://www.cabume.co.uk/images/stori...startups10.jpg It's almost impossible to find a photo of Clive Sinclair not wearing a suit and tie; and look: here's the two of them: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...3_1417899i.jpg This is what I wore to the office around then (1985), my jacket would be hanging on the back of a chair. [You can also see one of my engineering staff with a tie on in the background]. When I was trying to "look cool" in front of end-users at the weekend I might dress like this [the full t-shirt slogan was "I built Arnold"], but there's still a jacket: http://cpcrulez.fr/im4/3/Roland_Perr..._Show-1985.jpg Sometimes it wouldn't be a suit jacket, and I did have rather long hair (for current tastes): http://www.retrogamer.net/wp-content...1/more-roland- 603x630.png After I left Amstrad this was my provocatively casual publicity photo: http://perso.wanadoo.es/amstradcpc/i...olandperry.jpg Continuing the cap theme, 25yrs later Bruce Schneier turned up to an OECD meeting I was at, wearing his signature cloth cap, an open shirt, and jeans; and although you may regard it as prejudiced, the main reaction from the people round the table was clearly "who is this idiot, and how quickly can we get him to stop talking". He *does* have a shirt/tie/suit though: http://www.american.edu/uploads/stan...ruce-Schneier- 300x200.jpg -- Roland Perry |
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On 2015-03-14 16:51:59 +0000, Roland Perry said:
They aren't uptight about dress, more they don't want to be distracted by people making fashion statements when they are supposed to be making serious technical or policy statements. A short sleeved shirt and a pair of chinos is hardly a "fashion statement", it is a practical, comfortable and tidy-looking outfit. Several of the female contestants dress as masculinely as possible, to avoid people looking at what they are wearing rather than listening to what they are saying. The opposite is a useful tactic in other circumstances, but it's important to dress appropriately for the occasion. I must say I find the ability of women to be accepted in relatively casual dress in offices but not men to be somewhat discriminatory. While I dislike a "you must wear a suit" rule, if one is imposed it should surely apply to all those in the office whether male or female. And vice versa. After I left Amstrad this was my provocatively casual publicity photo: http://perso.wanadoo.es/amstradcpc/i...olandperry.jpg You think that is "provocatively casual"? Crikey. Continuing the cap theme, 25yrs later Bruce Schneier turned up to an OECD meeting I was at, wearing his signature cloth cap, an open shirt, and jeans; and although you may regard it as prejudiced, the main reaction from the people round the table was clearly "who is this idiot, and how quickly can we get him to stop talking". Then they are prejudiced fools, unless of course the topic of his talk was not interesting in and of itself! Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
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In message , at 16:51:59 on Sat, 14
Mar 2015, Roland Perry remarked: This is what I wore to the office around then (1985), my jacket would be hanging on the back of a chair. [You can also see one of my engineering staff with a tie on in the background]. missed out the url: http://www.retrogamer.net/wp-content.../roland-perry- young.png -- Roland Perry |
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In message , at 17:10:47 on Sat, 14
Mar 2015, Neil Williams remarked: On 2015-03-14 16:51:59 +0000, Roland Perry said: They aren't uptight about dress, more they don't want to be distracted by people making fashion statements when they are supposed to be making serious technical or policy statements. A short sleeved shirt and a pair of chinos is hardly a "fashion statement", it is a practical, comfortable and tidy-looking outfit. But not in any business meetings. At best it looks as if your luggage got lost on the plane on theh way there. After I left Amstrad this was my provocatively casual publicity photo: http://perso.wanadoo.es/amstradcpc/i...olandperry.jpg You think that is "provocatively casual"? Crikey. It was in 1990, when I was trying to get blue-chip companies as clients. Continuing the cap theme, 25yrs later Bruce Schneier turned up to an OECD meeting I was at, wearing his signature cloth cap, an open shirt, and jeans; and although you may regard it as prejudiced, the main reaction from the people round the table was clearly "who is this idiot, and how quickly can we get him to stop talking". Then they are prejudiced fools, Their main prejudice being "why would this person feel the need to make a statement by his manner of dress, why won't his arguments speak for themselves". unless of course the topic of his talk was not interesting in and of itself! It was interesting, but not for the reasons he intended. -- Roland Perry |
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On 2015-03-14 20:29:30 +0000, Roland Perry said:
But not in any business meetings. At best it looks as if your luggage got lost on the plane on theh way there. Depends what the "business meeting" is (in 2015)! Their main prejudice being "why would this person feel the need to make a statement by his manner of dress, why won't his arguments speak for themselves". That formal business wear is staid and uncomfortable? But it has nothing to do with the point. I'm more interested in what people say/do than how they dress, within reason. If their outfit was scruffy, torn, unironed etc I would see your point, but tidy clothes are tidy clothes whether a suit or a less formal shirt and trousers. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
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On 2015-03-14 17:41:00 +0000, Roland Perry said:
In message , at 16:51:59 on Sat, 14 Mar 2015, Roland Perry remarked: This is what I wore to the office around then (1985), my jacket would be hanging on the back of a chair. [You can also see one of my engineering staff with a tie on in the background]. missed out the url: http://www.retrogamer.net/wp-content.../roland-perry- young.png I don't see why something like this: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/14/article-2580874-1C47431C00000578-884_634x903.jpg looks any less appropriate. As to a jacket on the back of the chair, what's the point? That's where mine would invariably end up, which is why I've given up wearing one in most cases. A black windproof fleece that I usually wear is more practical against the weather, and similarly comes off and goes on the chair when I walk into the office. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
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In message , at 10:30:01 on Sun, 15 Mar
2015, Neil Williams remarked: On 2015-03-14 20:29:30 +0000, Roland Perry said: But not in any business meetings. At best it looks as if your luggage got lost on the plane on theh way there. Depends what the "business meeting" is (in 2015)! Not buying and selling widgets. Their main prejudice being "why would this person feel the need to make a statement by his manner of dress, why won't his arguments speak for themselves". That formal business wear is staid and uncomfortable? You keep coming back to the comfort issue. I find it *more* comfortable than most "casual" wear. "Staid" just means 'simple and accessible'. But it has nothing to do with the point. I'm more interested in what people say/do than how they dress, within reason. If their outfit was scruffy, torn, unironed etc I would see your point, but tidy clothes are tidy clothes whether a suit or a less formal shirt and trousers. The less formal stuff still gets in the way, if you are the odd one out in the meetings where I'm wearing a suit (and you would be). -- Roland Perry |
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In message , at 10:32:35 on Sun, 15 Mar
2015, Neil Williams remarked: On 2015-03-14 17:41:00 +0000, Roland Perry said: In message , at 16:51:59 on Sat, 14 Mar 2015, Roland Perry remarked: This is what I wore to the office around then (1985), my jacket would be hanging on the back of a chair. [You can also see one of my engineering staff with a tie on in the background]. missed out the url: http://www.retrogamer.net/wp-content.../roland-perry- young.png I don't see why something like this: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...-1C47431C00000 578-884_634x903.jpg looks any less appropriate. It's smart, but very business-like. As to a jacket on the back of the chair, what's the point? To be easy to grab when going out of the office. That's where mine would invariably end up, which is why I've given up wearing one in most cases. A black windproof fleece that I usually wear is more practical against the weather, and similarly comes off and goes on the chair when I walk into the office. That's similar to what I have for use when I'm going shopping. But I wouldn't wear that to London. -- Roland Perry |
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On 2015-03-15 11:26:42 +0000, Roland Perry said:
As to a jacket on the back of the chair, what's the point? To be easy to grab when going out of the office. So it can provide almost no protection against cold/wind/rain? That's where mine would invariably end up, which is why I've given up wearing one in most cases. A black windproof fleece that I usually wear is more practical against the weather, and similarly comes off and goes on the chair when I walk into the office. That's similar to what I have for use when I'm going shopping. But I wouldn't wear that to London. I do every time (except summer). Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
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