On Saturday, 11 July 2015 20:31:36 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
Paul Cummins wrote:
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to
"pressing
a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of
then a
genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be
warranted.

all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube,
after much more emulator practise than I needed to learn to fly a plane.

And that really can be reduced to "press a button"

I see it takes about six months of training; not trivial, but a lot less
than a professional pilot.

From https://www.how2become.com/careers/l...-train-driver/

[snip Internet hearsay]

I don't really understand your point, or the relevance of pilots, or why you copy+pasted all of that
from some random site (a link would have been enough!)

You're ranting on about drivers even after it's been pointed out that it's been an age since ASLEF
have gone on strike. That's why this strike resulted in a shutdown rather than the minuscule service
that's happened a few times over the last few years. You can run some service when you have reduced
staff of different types, but when they all have a grievance they agree on...

I don't work on the Underground, but if you're so jealous of people who do (that's surely what it comes
down to?) there's surely an easy way to get on the button-pushing gravy train yourself? Apply!

It's really odd how if you work in a bank in the City you're creating wealth for the nation, but not if
you're someone transporting thousands of them to their office.

On Saturday, 11 July 2015 21:37:00 UTC+1, Robin9 wrote:
'Recliner[_3_ Wrote:
;149316']On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 21:14:05 +0200, Robin9
wrote:
-

'Recliner[_3_ Wrote: -
;149299']Robin9 wrote:-
'Recliner[_3_ Wrote: -
;149283']http://tinyurl.com/nf6grll-

I heard that all LU workers were on strike, not just the train
drivers.
How much do the other members of staff earn?-

Perhaps you didn't actually read the linked article?

It said, "Tube drivers are also much better paid than some of their
other
colleagues who'll be joining them on strike. Station staff get around
£30,000, according to TfI, with others closer to £20,000, while
supervisors
earn around £40,000 - still markedly less than what tube drivers
get."-

No, I didn't read the linked article. I rarely follow links.

So, most other members of staff earn far less than train drivers. Why
then is
all the attention on drivers' earnings and none on the �20,000 or so
earned
by the unspecified "others? Is this that famous politics-of-envy I keep
hearing about?-

People think Tube drivers are very overpaid for the jobs they do. They
don't think the other staff are. And yet it's most often the drivers
who go on strike.

Compare Tube drivers with bus drivers. By almost any measure, the
latter have a much more difficult job, and yet they earn much less.
Also, operating Tube trains is getting easier and easier, as the
trains get more automated, and yet that de-skilling hasn't resulted in
lower Tube driver pay.

It isn't tube workers' fault that bus drivers are under-paid, and there
is no
reason tube workers should take a pay cut in sympathy. It really does
sound
like the politics-of-envy: ordinary working people daring to earn good
money!
Outrageous!

Exactly! "I have no power and am completely at the whim of my bosses,
but instead of wanting better for everyone I want everyone to be like me".
Complete race to the bottom. How that became excepted wisdom I've no
idea, but it's incredibly depressing.

Mark wrote:
On Saturday, 11 July 2015 20:31:36 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
Paul Cummins wrote:
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to
"pressing
a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of
then a
genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be
warranted.

all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube,
after much more emulator practise than I needed to learn to fly a plane.

And that really can be reduced to "press a button"

I see it takes about six months of training; not trivial, but a lot less
than a professional pilot.

From https://www.how2become.com/careers/l...-train-driver/

[snip Internet hearsay]

I don't really understand your point, or the relevance of pilots, or why
you copy+pasted all of that
from some random site (a link would have been enough!)

Lots of people, it seems, don't read posted links, and it's in any case
polite to quote relevant extracts. Not everyone is online when reading
usenet. It also wasn't a random link.

The relevance of pilots would be evident if you had read the post I was
replying to.


You're ranting on about drivers even after it's been pointed out that
it's been an age since ASLEF
have gone on strike.

Perhaps you aren't aware that almost 40% of Tube drivers are RMT members,
and they're the ones who frequently go on strike, sometimes to defend the
indefensible.

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to quote any rants of mine? I suspect you're
confusing me with other posters.

That's why this strike resulted in a shutdown rather than the minuscule service
that's happened a few times over the last few years. You can run some
service when you have reduced
staff of different types, but when they all have a grievance they agree on...

I don't work on the Underground, but if you're so jealous of people who
do (that's surely what it comes
down to?) there's surely an easy way to get on the button-pushing gravy
train yourself? Apply!

Why should I be jealous? Have I ever suggested I was? I just don't think
that relatively well-paid people should subject millions of people to such
disruption every time they have any sort of grievance.

I spent a *lot* more than six months in higher education, never joined a
union in my career, almost all of which was in organisations with no
unions, and never even contemplated going on strike in my entire working
life. Being well qualified, I was also well paid. Neither the work, nor the
pay, of driving a tube train or a plane was ever attractive to me.


It's really odd how if you work in a bank in the City you're creating
wealth for the nation, but not if
you're someone transporting thousands of them to their office.

How many times have City workers ever gone on strike? And they aren't all
as well paid as tube drivers. A very small proportion of investment bankers
and top managers do earn huge sums, but most City workers don't.

And, before you start accusing me of being a banker, no I wasn't, and nor
did I ever work in the City.

On Sat, 11 Jul 2015 13:52:25 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jul 2015 11:22:48 +0100, Recliner
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 21:14:05 +0200, Robin9
wrote:


'Recliner[_3_ Wrote:
;149299']Robin9 wrote:-
'Recliner[_3_ Wrote: -
;149283']http://tinyurl.com/nf6grll-

I heard that all LU workers were on strike, not just the train
drivers.
How much do the other members of staff earn?-

Perhaps you didn't actually read the linked article?

It said, "Tube drivers are also much better paid than some of their
other
colleagues who'll be joining them on strike. Station staff get around
£30,000, according to TfI, with others closer to £20,000, while
supervisors
earn around £40,000 - still markedly less than what tube drivers get."

No, I didn't read the linked article. I rarely follow links.

So, most other members of staff earn far less than train drivers. Why
then is
all the attention on drivers' earnings and none on the £20,000 or so
earned
by the unspecified "others? Is this that famous politics-of-envy I keep
hearing about?

People think Tube drivers are very overpaid for the jobs they do. They
don't think the other staff are. And yet it's most often the drivers
who go on strike.

No it isn't. It's station staff and people in specialised control
positions that the RMT have called out. Some RMT train drivers have
been called out but ASLEF rarely strikes. There have only been two
ASLEF disputes - Boxing Day payments and the current Night Tube - in
recent years. The Boxing Day issue is resolved. There are also line
specific disputes - again nearly always called by the RMT.

Yes, I know these days it's the RMT that's militant. In years gone by,
it was ASLEF rather than the NUR that tended to call the strikes.


Compare Tube drivers with bus drivers. By almost any measure, the
latter have a much more difficult job, and yet they earn much less.
Also, operating Tube trains is getting easier and easier, as the
trains get more automated, and yet that de-skilling hasn't resulted in
lower Tube driver pay.

However the formal job requirements haven't been deskilled have they?
Drivers have to learn to operate to a new set of operating procedures
and rules, still need to know the entire route but how it works under
degraded conditions with ATO kit and to still be able to drive the
trains. Care of passengers, fault management and detection on the
stock and safety & evacuation knowledge requirements haven't changed
one jot as far as I know.

When driving automatic trains manually, presumably they are driven
much more slowly than when in full automatic mode? Do the trains
still have protection?


If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to "pressing
a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of then a
genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be
warranted. I wonder if the travelling public would really be content
to have relatively poorly qualified staff looking after technically
complex assets in what will always be a confined environment
underground?

Lower paid, and often very young, cabin crew have similar
responsibilities on airliners, and it seems to work pretty well.
Planes no longer carry flight engineers, and the pilots seldom emerge
from the flight deck other than to visit the loo or the galley.

The cabin crew have to look after safety equipment, the doors, luggage
stowage, broken seats, screaming kids, medical and emergency
procedures, safety briefings, the entertainment system, etc on their
own, quite apart from heating up and delivering the food and drink. On
long haul flights, those responsibilities might last for up to 15
years (with rest breaks). They also have to monitor the flight deck,
visiting it regularly to ensure that the pilots aren't all asleep.
They need to be alert for possible hijackers, and stop passengers
clustering round the cockpit door. They also have to deal with drunks.

On 2015-07-11 18:28:00 +0000, Paul Cummins said:

all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube,

Interesting as I've driven a Class 101 DMU (which involves a bit more
than a modern one, given the semi-manual transmission and vacuum brake)
and didn't actually find it all that difficult. Indeed, I was OK
enough with it that at one point the instructor decided it was OK to
wander off to the van to chat with his mate who was acting as the guard
and leave me to it!

OK, it was on a preserved line, so far fewer challenges, but in terms
of the mechanics of driving the train (rather than all the other stuff
drivers have to learn for the mainline and Tube) it wasn't hard.

The PC based simulators are actually a bit harder than the real thing
because you don't have the kind of feedback (feeling of acceleration
and braking etc) that you do with the real thing.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

The PC based simulators are actually a bit harder than the real
thing because you don't have the kind of feedback (feeling of
acceleration and braking etc) that you do with the real thing.

In theory I;d have the same problem with a PC flight sim as well though.

Strangely, I find some flight sims easier than others - combat flight sim
is easier than normal, even though it's the same plane.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Please Help us dispose of unwanted virtual currency:
Bitcoin: 1LzAJBqzoaEudhsZ14W7YrdYSmLZ5m1seZ

On Sunday, July 12, 2015 at 1:29:21 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
On Saturday, 11 July 2015 20:31:36 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
Paul Cummins wrote:
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to
"pressing
a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of
then a
genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be
warranted.

all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube,
after much more emulator practise than I needed to learn to fly a plane.

And that really can be reduced to "press a button"

I see it takes about six months of training; not trivial, but a lot less
than a professional pilot.

From https://www.how2become.com/careers/l...-train-driver/

[snip Internet hearsay]

I don't really understand your point, or the relevance of pilots, or why you copy+pasted all of that
from some random site (a link would have been enough!)

You're ranting on about drivers even after it's been pointed out that it's been an age since ASLEF
have gone on strike. That's why this strike resulted in a shutdown rather than the minuscule service
that's happened a few times over the last few years. You can run some service when you have reduced
staff of different types, but when they all have a grievance they agree on...

I don't work on the Underground, but if you're so jealous of people who do (that's surely what it comes
down to?) there's surely an easy way to get on the button-pushing gravy train yourself? Apply!

It's really odd how if you work in a bank in the City you're creating wealth for the nation, but not if
you're someone transporting thousands of them to their office.

In Nigel's case it is not jealousy. It is a case of "I'm alright Jack". He has made his money, sod the workers trying to make a decent living. He lacks a moral compass.

I once met a freight train driver who previously had been a licenced taxi driver
(suburban) in London. He had changed jobs because he couldn't make a good
living as a suburban driver. He said it had not taken long to be trained up as a
driver and he was making far more money too.

Perhaps in your case it isn't envy; it's merely snobbery.

You seem very pleased with the way your career has developed, and the
above passage is not the first instance of your regaling us with details of your
success. Yet you seem eager to suggest that well-paid tube drivers are
somehow unworthy of their hire.

I too have never aspired to work on London Underground but I'm glad that
those who do are well paid. Having lived through the pre-Thatcher period
when securing decent pay was normal and having seen what happens when
the vast majority of jobs are badly paid, I am delighted when normal people
with not more than normal levels of education, self-confidence and energy
receive handsome renumeration.

On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 11:59:01 PM UTC+5:30, Paul Cummins wrote:
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to
"pressing
a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of
then a
genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be
warranted.

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all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube,
after much more emulator practise than I needed to learn to fly a plane.

And that really can be reduced to "press a button"

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Please Help us dispose of unwanted virtual currency:
Bitcoin: 1LzAJBqzoaEudhsZ14W7YrdYSmLZ5m1seZ

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