I wonder if Network Rail agree about the feasibility of 6 passenger
trains and 6 freight trains an hour. (Mind you, I've never seen any
evidence that there's a need for 6 freight paths an hour!)

I don't know how likely a cross Thames extension is, but I hope
it won't require much demolition of newly created infrastructure.

Don't know if NR agree or not. The operation of extra trains would require an extra freight passing loop - that's in the inspector's report. I think past NR documents have said that signalling mods would also be needed to run an enhanced frequency. However this isn't mentioned in the inspector's report.

TfL told the inquiry that it will likely be the 2030s before a cross river link could be contemplated or afforded. A cost of £1.2-£1.8bn is cited. One objector went to great lengths to try to discredit the elevated design as it would need to be demolished and replaced with a descending tunnel alignment and sub surface station if the link to Abbey Wood is built. The objections were rejected because forcing TfL to build a tunnelled link now was not in the current project scope / design, not funded and not within the pervue of the inquiry. The inspector said that if the elevated link eventually had to be demonlished then it would not be money wasted given that providing the link would have enabled the building of 10,500 new homes.

--
Paul C
via Google

On 2017\08\06 23:38, Paul Corfield wrote:

Inspector's report - https://www.gov.uk/government/public...pectors-report

4. Another interesting possibility of extending planned peak extra trains from Enfield to Seven Sisters onwards to Barking via the S Tott curve. As the trains will be common stock in future this would give 6 tph from S Tott to Barking in the peaks. No timescale given, though, for this possible variant service.

The exact quote in the report is "TfL planners are already considering
diverting Enfield Town to Seven Sisters trains to Barking." This might
imply that the entire Enfield service would go that way. Either way it
seems odd... here's some passenger figures from Wikipedia.

Bush Hill Park 0.992 million
Enfield Town 2.107 million

Southbury 0.834 million
Turkey Street 0.604 million
Theobald's Grove 0.352 million

(I can't get figures for Cheshunt Overground only, but it has faster
trains to the Victoria Line and to Liverpool Street via Tottenham Hale.)

So Enfield Town alone has more than the three Southbury Loop stations.

I think Enfield Town needs 8-car trains from Liverpool Street, and the
Southbury Loop should get the 4-car trains from Barking.

In article , (Basil Jet)
wrote:

On 2017\08\06 23:38, Paul Corfield wrote:

Inspector's report -

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...rking-riversid
e-extension-order-inspectors-report

4. Another interesting possibility of extending planned peak extra
trains from Enfield to Seven Sisters onwards to Barking via the S Tott
curve. As the trains will be common stock in future this would give 6
tph from S Tott to Barking in the peaks. No timescale given, though,
for this possible variant service.

The exact quote in the report is "TfL planners are already
considering diverting Enfield Town to Seven Sisters trains to
Barking." This might imply that the entire Enfield service would go
that way. Either way it seems odd... here's some passenger figures
from Wikipedia.

Bush Hill Park 0.992 million
Enfield Town 2.107 million

Southbury 0.834 million
Turkey Street 0.604 million
Theobald's Grove 0.352 million

(I can't get figures for Cheshunt Overground only, but it has faster
trains to the Victoria Line and to Liverpool Street via Tottenham
Hale.)

So Enfield Town alone has more than the three Southbury Loop stations.

I think Enfield Town needs 8-car trains from Liverpool Street, and
the Southbury Loop should get the 4-car trains from Barking.

But these are "planned extra trains" from Enfield Town, so on top of the
current 4 trains hourly in the peak when Cheshunt and the Southbury loop
only get half-hourly trains. Enfield Town also has 3 platforms to reverse
trains in while Cheshunt just has one for LO services.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

How many trains are there today on the Essex Thameside (Tilbury Loop)
Line east of Barking?

--
jhk

On Tuesday, 8 August 2017 00:25:09 UTC+1, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2017\08\06 23:38, Paul Corfield wrote:

Inspector's report - https://www.gov.uk/government/public...pectors-report

4. Another interesting possibility of extending planned peak extra trains from Enfield to Seven Sisters onwards to Barking via the S Tott curve. As the trains will be common stock in future this would give 6 tph from S Tott to Barking in the peaks. No timescale given, though, for this possible variant service.

The exact quote in the report is "TfL planners are already considering
diverting Enfield Town to Seven Sisters trains to Barking." This might
imply that the entire Enfield service would go that way. Either way it
seems odd... here's some passenger figures from Wikipedia.

Bush Hill Park 0.992 million
Enfield Town 2.107 million

Southbury 0.834 million
Turkey Street 0.604 million
Theobald's Grove 0.352 million

(I can't get figures for Cheshunt Overground only, but it has faster
trains to the Victoria Line and to Liverpool Street via Tottenham Hale.)

So Enfield Town alone has more than the three Southbury Loop stations.

I think Enfield Town needs 8-car trains from Liverpool Street, and the
Southbury Loop should get the 4-car trains from Barking.

I know what the report says. TfL have had plans for extra peak hours trains between Seven Sisters and Enfield Town to try to resolve the high demand on that flow because of the large scale of interchange. Obviously Liverpool St trains are still busy and pick up many more people further south. I have seen no suggestion at all that the current 4 tph peak / 2 tph off peak Enfied - Liv St service would be diverted anywhere.

The extras can't run to LST as there aren't the paths nor any effective intermediate turnbacks. This leaves only a couple of options as to what you do with the trains once they reached Seven Sisters. You either try to reverse on the chord or you run through South Tottenham and reverse them there or on the connecting tracks towards Stratford / Clapton or you send them eastwards on the GOBLIN. Given the GOBLIN is forecast in the future to have continued levels of overcrowding, even with longer electric trains, between Barking and Blackhorse Road I can see the attraction to TfL of trying to add some extra peak frequency on this section. Anyway this is all a fair number of years away given funding constraints. I only mentioned it in the first place as an interesting snippet from the report.

--
Paul C
via Google

On 2017\08\09 17:17, Paul Corfield wrote:

I know what the report says. TfL have had plans for extra peak hours trains between Seven Sisters and Enfield Town to try to resolve the high demand on that flow because of the large scale of interchange. Obviously Liverpool St trains are still busy and pick up many more people further south. I have seen no suggestion at all that the current 4 tph peak / 2 tph off peak Enfied - Liv St service would be diverted anywhere.

The extras can't run to LST as there aren't the paths nor any effective intermediate turnbacks. This leaves only a couple of options as to what you do with the trains once they reached Seven Sisters. You either try to reverse on the chord or you run through South Tottenham and reverse them there or on the connecting tracks towards Stratford / Clapton or you send them eastwards on the GOBLIN. Given the GOBLIN is forecast in the future to have continued levels of overcrowding, even with longer electric trains, between Barking and Blackhorse Road I can see the attraction to TfL of trying to add some extra peak frequency on this section. Anyway this is all a fair number of years away given funding constraints. I only mentioned it in the first place as an interesting snippet from the report.

Another option is to send the extras from Enfield to Stratford. This
would allow them to be 8-car, and it would give Enfield-Seven Sisters a
service that might be useful for a fair number of commuters (although
it's possible that Docklands than via Stratford might be slower than
changing at Liverpool Street for Crossrail, or even walking from Bethnal
Orange to Whitechapel). But obviously that doesn't help with predicted
crowding on the Goblin.

Do they not think that the Crossrail interchange at Wanstead Park /
Forest Gate will suck a lot of the interchange out of Blackhorse Road?
They seem to be ignoring it, sometimes omitting it from line guides etc.

Crayonista solution: Build track from Cambridge Heath to Whitechapel and
run them to New Cross.

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 7:41:10 PM UTC+1, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2017\08\09 17:17, Paul Corfield wrote:

I know what the report says. TfL have had plans for extra peak hours trains between Seven Sisters and Enfield Town to try to resolve the high demand on that flow because of the large scale of interchange. Obviously Liverpool St trains are still busy and pick up many more people further south. I have seen no suggestion at all that the current 4 tph peak / 2 tph off peak Enfied - Liv St service would be diverted anywhere.

The extras can't run to LST as there aren't the paths nor any effective intermediate turnbacks. This leaves only a couple of options as to what you do with the trains once they reached Seven Sisters. You either try to reverse on the chord or you run through South Tottenham and reverse them there or on the connecting tracks towards Stratford / Clapton or you send them eastwards on the GOBLIN. Given the GOBLIN is forecast in the future to have continued levels of overcrowding, even with longer electric trains, between Barking and Blackhorse Road I can see the attraction to TfL of trying to add some extra peak frequency on this section. Anyway this is all a fair number of years away given funding constraints. I only mentioned it in the first place as an interesting snippet from the report.

Another option is to send the extras from Enfield to Stratford.

Out of the frying pan and into the fire! They'd impede the flow
of traffic to and from Tottenham Hale which, we're always told,
is so intense that additional tracks are required.

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:41:05 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2017\08\09 17:17, Paul Corfield wrote:

I know what the report says. TfL have had plans for extra peak hours trains between Seven Sisters and Enfield Town to try to resolve the high demand on that flow because of the large scale of interchange. Obviously Liverpool St trains are still busy and pick up many more people further south. I have seen no suggestion at all that the current 4 tph peak / 2 tph off peak Enfied - Liv St service would be diverted anywhere.

The extras can't run to LST as there aren't the paths nor any effective intermediate turnbacks. This leaves only a couple of options as to what you do with the trains once they reached Seven Sisters. You either try to reverse on the chord or you run through South Tottenham and reverse them there or on the connecting tracks towards Stratford / Clapton or you send them eastwards on the GOBLIN. Given the GOBLIN is forecast in the future to have continued levels of overcrowding, even with longer electric trains, between Barking and Blackhorse Road I can see the attraction to TfL of trying to add some extra peak frequency on this section. Anyway this is all a fair number of years away given funding constraints. I only mentioned it in the first place as an interesting snippet from the report.

Another option is to send the extras from Enfield to Stratford. This
would allow them to be 8-car, and it would give Enfield-Seven Sisters a
service that might be useful for a fair number of commuters (although
it's possible that Docklands than via Stratford might be slower than
changing at Liverpool Street for Crossrail, or even walking from Bethnal
Orange to Whitechapel). But obviously that doesn't help with predicted
crowding on the Goblin.

Do they not think that the Crossrail interchange at Wanstead Park /
Forest Gate will suck a lot of the interchange out of Blackhorse Road?
They seem to be ignoring it, sometimes omitting it from line guides etc.

Crayonista solution: Build track from Cambridge Heath to Whitechapel and
run them to New Cross.

Interchanging from Forest Gate to Wanstead Park 'tis not that easy.

There's a busy road to cross, narrow pavements & a climb up to
Wanstead Park platforms.

If I want to change from c2c to AGA I use the Upminster - Romford
shuttle.

DC

---
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