On Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:32:05 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:



"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 24 Dec 2017 00:54:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 07:23:09 +0000 (GMT+00:00), tolly57
wrote:

PhilD Wrote in message:
On Wednesday, 20 December 2017 11:51:07 UTC, Basil Jet wrote:
Boundary of TfL ownership? I presume Taplow will be it.

*Ownership* boundary will be near Royal Oak. Station responsibility
will be Taplow (Slough stays with GWR).



Zone 6 is currently West Drayton for Oyster and Freedom Pass
holders, I assume an extension ticket will be required for onward
travel to Reading then?

Freedom Pass/60+ Oyster holders only need a valid ticket of some type
for the extended journey as no touch in/out or stopping of the train
is required at the boundary station. PAYG Oyster needs a touch in/out
at both ends of the journey within the Oyster zones to prevent a
maximum fare being created.

True, but I don't think we know yet how far west the Freedom Pass will run
when the Elizabeth line opens: West Drayton, Taplow, or somewhere in
between? And what zone(s) will the new stations be in for Oyster?

Based on the current arrangements for FP/60+, "how far" is probably as
far as the GLA regards as reasonable (see also Swanley and Dartford)
to support GL residents going off-patch. West Drayton is the last bit
of the GL conurbation, Iver is in comparative countryside so Langley
or Slough would seem to be natural choices while anything west of
Slough is arguably a trip into the countryside beyond. For paid Oyster
it might be whatever the system can support, maybe in conjunction with
sorting the anomoly which is going to result if/when Watford (Met)
services (zone 7) are diverted to Watford Junction (zone 9 and a bit).

next century you mean?

Maybe not even that soon. ;-)

On Sunday, 24 December 2017 01:13:49 UTC, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sun, 24 Dec 2017 00:54:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 07:23:09 +0000 (GMT+00:00), tolly57
wrote:

PhilD Wrote in message:
On Wednesday, 20 December 2017 11:51:07 UTC, Basil Jet wrote:
Boundary of TfL ownership? I presume Taplow will be it.

*Ownership* boundary will be near Royal Oak. Station responsibility
will be Taplow (Slough stays with GWR).



Zone 6 is currently West Drayton for Oyster and Freedom Pass
holders, I assume an extension ticket will be required for onward
travel to Reading then?

Freedom Pass/60+ Oyster holders only need a valid ticket of some type
for the extended journey as no touch in/out or stopping of the train
is required at the boundary station. PAYG Oyster needs a touch in/out
at both ends of the journey within the Oyster zones to prevent a
maximum fare being created.

True, but I don't think we know yet how far west the Freedom Pass will run
when the Elizabeth line opens: West Drayton, Taplow, or somewhere in
between? And what zone(s) will the new stations be in for Oyster?

Based on the current arrangements for FP/60+, "how far" is probably as
far as the GLA regards as reasonable (see also Swanley and Dartford)
to support GL residents going off-patch. West Drayton is the last bit
of the GL conurbation, Iver is in comparative countryside so Langley
or Slough would seem to be natural choices while anything west of
Slough is arguably a trip into the countryside beyond. For paid Oyster
it might be whatever the system can support, maybe in conjunction with
sorting the anomoly which is going to result if/when Watford (Met)
services (zone 7) are diverted to Watford Junction (zone 9 and a bit).

Not really a decision for the GLA. It's for London Councils to determine as they co-ordinate the Borough's funding for concessionary travel. Until TfL determine the fare levels that will apply and some sort of demand forecast then the "revenue foregone" can't be calculated. Only then can London Councils determine if the cost can or should be funded. The 60+ Pass is funded by TfL but its availability follows what is set for the Freedom Pass. The fact the FP reaches Dartford and Watford is largely an accident of history. Crossrail is rather different (IMO) and the potential revenue impact (given how high fares are to Reading) greater plus there are issues of perceived fairness - why should London residents gain free travel so far to the west but Berkshire residents get nothing?

The other factor with the 60+ Pass is the growing number of people who are entitled to it and the spiralling cost to TfL. There are huge pressures on TfL's budget to 2020 and beyond so there may be good reason not to expand its coverage and all the attendant cost.

Not sure I understand the earlier comments about "TfL empire building". The transfer of stations between TOCs has been happening since franchising starting. The transfer of some, but not all, stations for stopping services in West London just reflects what has been agreed with the DfT as to what Crossrail will operate. It is noteworthy that the stations that have national rail fare setting rules (Slough, Reading) remain with GWR so they're in charge of pricing for the route. Again no doubt a DfT demand as with other transfers to TfL - Shenfield didn't transfer nor did Cheshunt. In similar vein Dartford remains with South Eastern despite Oyster ticketing eventually being extended there. The stations remaining with GWR also reflect the existence of other rail services (branches) or longer distance trains stopping.

I think all the "mood music" has been that Oyster PAYG / contactless will reach Reading but don't expect any clever "zones" or stuff like that. With the restructured Oyster system each station should be capable of being individually priced rather than grouped as has happened in the past. We may also see some past pricing compromises being removed once the new system is fully operational. I also wonder quite what will happen with daily / 7 day capping and maximum fares given the high fares that apply beyond the normal T/Card boundary. We may see the first signs of fare adjustments in May 2018 when the Heathrow service starts and Oyster / CPC is extended there.

--
Paul C
via Google

On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 11:51:04 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2017\12\20 09:46, tolly57 wrote:
Basil Jet Wrote in message:
On 2017\12\19 15:18, tim... wrote:


"Basil Jet" wrote in message
news
"TfL announced earlier this month that it was taking over the running
of 11 stations between Acton Main Line and Taplow from December 10."
"The Elizabeth line is going to transform travel across the capital
and it?s only right that every station will have step-free access."

Are Londoners paying for improvements to Taplow and Burnham?

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/...nwell-14052332


https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tfl-managed-stations

does that mean that freedom pass holders will get free travel all the
way to Taplow?

Does it mean ghost stations like Iver will be permanently staffed?



Would be interesting to know where the boundary will be at the
western end of the Elizabeth line?

Boundary of TfL ownership? I presume Taplow will be it.

So Taplow is within the GLA's bailiwick, bur Watford is not!

On 2017\12\28 12:30, e27002 aurora wrote:
On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 11:51:04 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2017\12\20 09:46, tolly57 wrote:
Basil Jet Wrote in message:
On 2017\12\19 15:18, tim... wrote:


"Basil Jet" wrote in message
news
"TfL announced earlier this month that it was taking over the running
of 11 stations between Acton Main Line and Taplow from December 10."
"The Elizabeth line is going to transform travel across the capital
and it?s only right that every station will have step-free access."

Are Londoners paying for improvements to Taplow and Burnham?

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/...nwell-14052332


https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tfl-managed-stations

does that mean that freedom pass holders will get free travel all the
way to Taplow?

Does it mean ghost stations like Iver will be permanently staffed?



Would be interesting to know where the boundary will be at the
western end of the Elizabeth line?

Boundary of TfL ownership? I presume Taplow will be it.

So Taplow is within the GLA's bailiwick, bur Watford is not!


Watford High Street station is.

On 28/12/2017 12:30, e27002 aurora wrote:
On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 11:51:04 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2017\12\20 09:46, tolly57 wrote:
Basil Jet Wrote in message:
On 2017\12\19 15:18, tim... wrote:


"Basil Jet" wrote in message
news
"TfL announced earlier this month that it was taking over the running
of 11 stations between Acton Main Line and Taplow from December 10."
"The Elizabeth line is going to transform travel across the capital
and it?s only right that every station will have step-free access."

Are Londoners paying for improvements to Taplow and Burnham?

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/...nwell-14052332


https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tfl-managed-stations

does that mean that freedom pass holders will get free travel all the
way to Taplow?

Does it mean ghost stations like Iver will be permanently staffed?



Would be interesting to know where the boundary will be at the
western end of the Elizabeth line?

Boundary of TfL ownership? I presume Taplow will be it.

So Taplow is within the GLA's bailiwick, bur Watford is not!


https://mapit.mysociety.org/area/2247.html

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Two points:

TfL's operations also extend to Epping which is way outside
the Greater London Area. Does the 60+ pass extend to Epping?
My Freedom Pass does. It also allows me to go to Cheshunt as
long as I use TfL Rail.

TfL's empire building refers primarily to the ambition to take
control of suburban services in South London, even though
that would inevitably have a huge impact on services from
further afield. It also takes in their determination to have a
major say in the allocation of train paths between Paddington
and Reading. I haven't bothered to keep up, but several months
ago I did come across some blogs where Berkshire commuters
were indignant about TfL's territorial ambitions.

Although instinctively reluctant to be generous to TfL, I do assume
they were not party to Mr. Khan's ludicrous suggestion some time
ago that he should take over the Southern services as he had
some magical mediating skills which could resolve the dispute
over guards.

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
news
On 28/12/2017 12:30, e27002 aurora wrote:
On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 11:51:04 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2017\12\20 09:46, tolly57 wrote:
Basil Jet Wrote in message:
On 2017\12\19 15:18, tim... wrote:


"Basil Jet" wrote in message
news
"TfL announced earlier this month that it was taking over the
running
of 11 stations between Acton Main Line and Taplow from December 10."
"The Elizabeth line is going to transform travel across the capital
and it?s only right that every station will have step-free access."

Are Londoners paying for improvements to Taplow and Burnham?

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/...nwell-14052332


https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tfl-managed-stations

does that mean that freedom pass holders will get free travel all the
way to Taplow?

Does it mean ghost stations like Iver will be permanently staffed?



Would be interesting to know where the boundary will be at the
western end of the Elizabeth line?

Boundary of TfL ownership? I presume Taplow will be it.

So Taplow is within the GLA's bailiwick, bur Watford is not!


https://mapit.mysociety.org/area/2247.html

which proves what?

tim

On 28/12/2017 14:27, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
news
On 28/12/2017 12:30, e27002 aurora wrote:
On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 11:51:04 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2017\12\20 09:46, tolly57 wrote:
Basil Jet Wrote in message:
On 2017\12\19 15:18, tim... wrote:


"Basil Jet" wrote in message
news
"TfL announced earlier this month that it was taking over the
running
of 11 stations between Acton Main Line and Taplow from December
10."
"The Elizabeth line is going to transform travel across the capital
and it?s only right that every station will have step-free access."

Are Londoners paying for improvements to Taplow and Burnham?

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/...nwell-14052332



https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tfl-managed-stations

does that mean that freedom pass holders will get free travel all
the
way to Taplow?

Does it mean ghost stations like Iver will be permanently staffed?



Would be interesting to know where the boundary will be at the
Â*Â* western end of the Elizabeth line?

Boundary of TfL ownership? I presume Taplow will be it.

So Taplow is within the GLA's bailiwick, bur Watford is not!


https://mapit.mysociety.org/area/2247.html

which proves what?


That neither are actually in the GLA's bailiwick.



--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thursday, 28 December 2017 14:57:38 UTC, Robin9 wrote:

Two points:

TfL's operations also extend to Epping which is way outside
the Greater London Area. Does the 60+ pass extend to Epping?
My Freedom Pass does. It also allows me to go to Cheshunt as
long as I use TfL Rail.

TfL's empire building refers primarily to the ambition to take
control of suburban services in South London, even though
that would inevitably have a huge impact on services from
further afield. It also takes in their determination to have a
major say in the allocation of train paths between Paddington
and Reading. I haven't bothered to keep up, but several months
ago I did come across some blogs where Berkshire commuters
were indignant about TfL's territorial ambitions.

Although instinctively reluctant to be generous to TfL, I do assume
they were not party to Mr. Khan's ludicrous suggestion some time
ago that he should take over the Southern services as he had
some magical mediating skills which could resolve the dispute
over guards.
--
Robin9

As I made clear there are is some validity that stretches beyond the GL boundary for longstanding historical reasons. Freedom Passes have been valid to Dartford for a very long time and long before PAYG was extended there and without TfL having any say in the train service that reaches Dartford.

Places like the Watford line have long had LT / LU / TfL involvement by virtue of former through working of services. Those arrangements have been refined where TfL have subsequently been granted specification / procurement rights for some of the rail services. I assume TfL and London Councils have reached agreement that the current F Pass can stretch to these cross boundary points as usual volumes are very low and revenue foregone is similarly low and not material to the overall funding settlement. With Crossrail to the west we face a rather different situation as the fare revenue foregone could be high if even moderate numbers were to use a "free" pass given the much higher fares to places like Twyford and Reading.

I am afraid I am going to be my usual picky self and say it is not TfL that have the "empire building ambitions". It is Mayors from the two main parties that have held such ambitions because the Mayoralty has been granted a wider area of influence over rail services. They do this for the obvious reasons of power and influence plus a belief they can secure better services.. The revenue would also be a nice add on to TfL's coffers. TfL only ever does what the Mayor requires which is why we have monstrous NB4L buses, a pointless cable car and why Ken Livingstone annoyed generations of bus loons by scrapping Routemasters. TfL implemented those Mayoral policies regardless of the wider issues. Just read the transcripts from the recent Garden Bridge investigation where both Peter Hendy and Mike Brown explain precisely how things work in the current structure. The only stuff that *has* to get done is what is in Mayoral manifestos. The fact a transport service also operates 364 days a year is incidental.

It is worth pointing out that courtesy of Heathrow Airport acting like an extortion racket over access to Heathrow via their rail tunnels that TfL, City Hall and the DfT all ended up on the same page over Crossrail issues in West London. Now that a settlement has been reached over Heathrow access it is notable that what followed is an outbreak of agreement between the Mayoralty and the DfT about granting extra running rights to Reading. This seemingly worked to DfT's satisfaction or else why on earth would a Grayling led DfT ever concede anything to a Labour run City Hall? He has plenty of form for blocking every rail devolution idea the current Mayor has had (even the ludicrous one you cite re Southern). I would also argue that if you rip funding away from TfL as George Osborne did then what on earth do you expect people to do to fill the gap? They will naturally look for opportunities to add services and responsibilities that allow new revenues to be gained and new sources of investment funding to be drawn on. That (IMO) partly sits behind the long held desire to take on South London's suburban rail network and also in wanting to run a much higher service level on Crossrail than originally envisaged. It all boils down to power and ££££s.

--
Paul C
via Google

In message , at
10:16:58 on Thu, 28 Dec 2017, Paul Corfield
remarked:
It is worth pointing out that courtesy of Heathrow Airport acting like
an extortion racket over access to Heathrow via their rail tunnels

Heathrow did actually pay for the tunnels to be built, so all they are
doing is getting some of their investment back.
--
Roland Perry