Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 18/07/2019 07:02, Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 17/07/2019 20:44, wrote:


Ones where the credit rolls over and you don't have to make a regular
calls to keep them alive, aren't quite as common as you claim. The
networks hate them because they tend to get used in "glovebox" phones
were they have all the costs of maintaining the number and the billing
records, for virtually no revenue.

Oh come on, its costs them precisely £0.00 to maintain a number, its
simply
data in a database.



And you are qualified to say that how?Â* Who supplies the database, and
on what license terms (hint: it's often on a per slot basis) - and
that's before we get to the overall costs where there may not be a net
gain per subscriber, but they have to be paid anyway - the radio
network, the data centres, the backhaul, the support staff, customer
services, Ofcom, etc etc etc.

Ok, answer me this -if the networks hate PAYG so much, why does it still
exist..?

--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:32:23 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:07:01 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 19:03:26 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:15:25 on
Wed, 17 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:
Ooh, that's a bit strong..! What's wrong with old phones, anyway..?

For a 'dumbphone', not a lot.

Using a smartphone once it no longer receives security patches isn't
something I would do personally.

What's the main threat you are trying to avoid?

Mostly some malware getting installed via a remote or drive-by
vulnerability.

What kinds of drive-by malware has been known to be delivered via apps
like Facebook and Twitter?

I'm not aware of any but I use many other apps on my smartphone such
as Chrome which has had bugs exploited in the past. One example is at
https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2016...droid-malware/.
That still requires an extra step but a similar bug might not.

What is the malware trying to achieve.

Perhaps it will be combined with some kind of permissions exploit that
means it can harvest data from other apps which in my case would include
my banking details/tokens. I could not have banking apps on my smartphone
but I choose to for the convenience and balance some of the risk by
having an up to date OS. Your choice might be different.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 17/07/2019 20:48, wrote:

An interesting thing about these early 2G phones were the fake antennas.
Apparently users expected a "proper" antenna so they added in a plastic pull
out one that actually did nothing.

My Motorola mr30 had one of those. It got broken off quite early on, but
the phone still worked fine..! Still have it, although the battery is no
more :-(


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 18/07/2019 14:33, MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 18/07/2019 07:02, Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 17/07/2019 20:44, wrote:


Ones where the credit rolls over and you don't have to make a regular
calls to keep them alive, aren't quite as common as you claim. The
networks hate them because they tend to get used in "glovebox" phones
were they have all the costs of maintaining the number and the billing
records, for virtually no revenue.

Oh come on, its costs them precisely £0.00 to maintain a number, its
simply
data in a database.



And you are qualified to say that how?Â* Who supplies the database, and
on what license terms (hint: it's often on a per slot basis) - and
that's before we get to the overall costs where there may not be a net
gain per subscriber, but they have to be paid anyway - the radio
network, the data centres, the backhaul, the support staff, customer
services, Ofcom, etc etc etc.

Ok, answer me this -if the networks hate PAYG so much, why does it still
exist..?

They don't hate it - they, like any other business, like less those who
spend less than others.

Plenty of PAYG customers spend reasonable amount of money. They like
those customers.

Those customers who think it's reasonable to spend £1/year on having an
"emergency phone" cost the operators more money than the revenue they
provide (for reasons we've been in and out of at least twice in the last
month). For obvious commercial reasons they like those customers less.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 14:33:56 on Thu, 18
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:

if the networks hate PAYG so much, why does it still exist..?

PAYG exists, like it always has, to fill a gap in the market for
customers who want a phone but aren't credit-worthy enough to qualify
for a contract (and thus present a risk they are walking out of a shop
with £500 of brand new phone and will never be heard of again).

The problem for the networks (and this is true of many kinds of
discounted market-priced rail tickets as well) that credit-worthy
cheapskates[1] see an opportunity to abstract revenue from the system
by reducing their expenditure via a carefully chosen SIM-free phone
plus tariff package.

As I think I mentioned before, the first and most egregious example that
came to light was "glove box phones" which very likely only send £10 of
revenue to the networks in their entire lifetime.

Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their equivalent of
"standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One I'll be writing about
later (in more detail) in another subthread, is the O2 requirement that
PAYG phones wanting to use the tube Wifi are topped up at least once a
month.

[1] And I'll happily admit I'm one of those.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:33:56 on Thu, 18
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:

if the networks hate PAYG so much, why does it still exist..?

PAYG exists, like it always has, to fill a gap in the market for
customers who want a phone but aren't credit-worthy enough to qualify
for a contract (and thus present a risk they are walking out of a shop
with £500 of brand new phone and will never be heard of again).

The problem for the networks (and this is true of many kinds of
discounted market-priced rail tickets as well) that credit-worthy
cheapskates[1] see an opportunity to abstract revenue from the system
by reducing their expenditure via a carefully chosen SIM-free phone
plus tariff package.

As I think I mentioned before, the first and most egregious example that
came to light was "glove box phones" which very likely only send £10 of
revenue to the networks in their entire lifetime.

Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their equivalent of
"standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One I'll be writing about
later (in more detail) in another subthread, is the O2 requirement that
PAYG phones wanting to use the tube Wifi are topped up at least once a
month.

I seem to recall that it's the same with Virgin itself: PAYG customers can
only use the Virgin Tube WiFi if they topped up their account with at least
£10 the previous month.



[1] And I'll happily admit I'm one of those.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:25:01 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:44:43 on Wed, 17 Jul
2019, remarked:

Ones where the credit rolls over and you don't have to make a regular
calls to keep them alive, aren't quite as common as you claim. The
networks hate them because they tend to get used in "glovebox" phones
were they have all the costs of maintaining the number and the billing
records, for virtually no revenue.

Oh come on, its costs them precisely £0.00 to maintain a number, its simply
data in a database.

Ah, the marginal costs fallacy rears its ugly head.

The only cost involved in an unused number is the cost to the user when the
phone company disconnects the SIM. The rest of it costs nothing because the
infrastructure would be needed regardless and linking a phone number to a
SIM id is probably a few hundred bytes or less in a DB. You could store the
entire UK phone book and every cellphone IMEI number on a USB stick with room to
spare never mind a fully fledged datacentre.

That's even assuming there's facilities which aren't charged to the
operator on a per-number basis.

O2 are not a virtual network.

O2 *are* an operator, they own the base station equipment.

Sure about that? It's not uncommon for it to be outsourced to people
like Ericsson.

They may well have, but any charges relating to the physical layer RF systems
will have nothing to do with how many subscribers the network has in its DB
unless they have so many they need to upgrade.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering
 

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:38:40 +0100
MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 17/07/2019 20:48, wrote:

An interesting thing about these early 2G phones were the fake antennas.
Apparently users expected a "proper" antenna so they added in a plastic pull
out one that actually did nothing.

My Motorola mr30 had one of those. It got broken off quite early on, but
the phone still worked fine..! Still have it, although the battery is no
more :-(

The Motorola NiMH batteries had a depressingly short life. Both of mine (the
phone came with 2) were done within 3 or so years. I replaced them with NiCads
which lasted longer but unfortunately were larger and heavier.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 15:18:47 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:33:56 on Thu, 18
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:

if the networks hate PAYG so much, why does it still exist..?

PAYG exists, like it always has, to fill a gap in the market for
customers who want a phone but aren't credit-worthy enough to qualify
for a contract (and thus present a risk they are walking out of a shop
with £500 of brand new phone and will never be heard of again).

The problem for the networks (and this is true of many kinds of

A problem they created for themselves so I won't be shedding any tears. They
wanted to attract as many people as possible and they did.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 18/07/2019 15:18, Roland Perry wrote:

Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their equivalent of
"standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One I'll be writing about
later (in more detail) in another subthread, is the O2 requirement that
PAYG phones wanting to use the tube Wifi are topped up at least once a
month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly is
effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.

[1] And I'll happily admit I'm one of those.

Ditto. My primary reason is I detest spending money unnecessarily (no,
I'm not Scottish, although I do live here..!) - why should I pay £xx a
month for a phone when I don't make many calls..? To me, a mobile is an
emergency device - if I break down in the middle of nowhere (not hard in
this part of the world) then I need to be able to contact someone.

If I want to ring a friend for a chat, or see how my mother is doing, it
can wait until I'm home. My landline package includes all calls to
landlines and mobiles, and is better value than any mobile contract I've
so far come across. I need the landline for broadband, so it makes sense
to use it and reserve the mobile for essential calls when away from home.

I really do wonder what all these people I see walking along the street
with their heads buried in their so-called "smart" phones are doing. Can
they really not survive ten minutes without checking FarceBuke or
Twitface..? How can they see what's on the screen anyway..? Whenever I
tried to use mine in daylight I couldn't see the thing at all..!


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering
 

On 18/07/2019 16:49, wrote:

The Motorola NiMH batteries had a depressingly short life. Both of mine (the
phone came with 2) were done within 3 or so years. I replaced them with NiCads
which lasted longer but unfortunately were larger and heavier.

Whereas the Li-Ion (Li-Polymer to be accurate) batteries that came with
my two Nokia 6310i's are still going strong after almost 20 years. One
is known to be from December 2000, as I wrote the date on it. I still
get a week on standby.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 18/07/2019 15:18, Roland Perry wrote:

Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their equivalent of
"standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One I'll be writing about
later (in more detail) in another subthread, is the O2 requirement that
PAYG phones wanting to use the tube Wifi are topped up at least once a
month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly is
effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.

[1] And I'll happily admit I'm one of those.

Ditto. My primary reason is I detest spending money unnecessarily (no,
I'm not Scottish, although I do live here..!) - why should I pay £xx a
month for a phone when I don't make many calls..? To me, a mobile is an
emergency device - if I break down in the middle of nowhere (not hard in
this part of the world) then I need to be able to contact someone.

If I want to ring a friend for a chat, or see how my mother is doing, it
can wait until I'm home. My landline package includes all calls to
landlines and mobiles, and is better value than any mobile contract I've
so far come across. I need the landline for broadband, so it makes sense
to use it and reserve the mobile for essential calls when away from home.

It's unusual for a land line package to include unlimited calls, 24x7, to
both land lines and mobiles. Conversely, even quite cheap mobile packages
(eg, £7pm) include generous (eg, 1500) numbers of minutes, 24x7, to both
land lines and mobiles.

Consequently, many people now only use their mobiles, with no land line
phone installed (even if they have to pay for the line as part of their
broadband). With FTTP lines, it's the VoIP land line that's the cheap
optional extra (£2pm in my case).


I really do wonder what all these people I see walking along the street
with their heads buried in their so-called "smart" phones are doing. Can
they really not survive ten minutes without checking FarceBuke or
Twitface..? How can they see what's on the screen anyway..? Whenever I
tried to use mine in daylight I couldn't see the thing at all..!

I think many of them are just playing games. Or they're in WhatsApp. If
walking along, maybe they're using it for navigation?

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 18/07/2019 13:32, Roland Perry wrote:

What kinds of drive-by malware has been known to be delivered via apps
like Facebook and Twitter?

Brexit and Trump?



--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 18/07/2019 19:31, MissRiaElaine wrote:

I really do wonder what all these people I see walking along the street
with their heads buried in their so-called "smart" phones are doing. Can
they really not survive ten minutes without checking FarceBuke or
Twitface..? How can they see what's on the screen anyway..? Whenever I
tried to use mine in daylight I couldn't see the thing at all..!

I often do wonder what all the people with their heads in so-called
"bukes" are doing. Can they really not survive ten minutes without
checking ppaer? How can they use them anyway..? When I tried to use one
in the rain it fell apart..!


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 18/07/2019 15:18, Roland Perry wrote:

Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their equivalent of
"standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One I'll be writing about
later (in more detail) in another subthread, is the O2 requirement that
PAYG phones wanting to use the tube Wifi are topped up at least once a
month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly is
effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.

[1] And I'll happily admit I'm one of those.

Ditto. My primary reason is I detest spending money unnecessarily (no,
I'm not Scottish, although I do live here..!) - why should I pay £xx a
month for a phone when I don't make many calls..? To me, a mobile is an
emergency device - if I break down in the middle of nowhere (not hard in
this part of the world) then I need to be able to contact someone.

If I want to ring a friend for a chat, or see how my mother is doing, it
can wait until I'm home. My landline package includes all calls to
landlines and mobiles, and is better value than any mobile contract I've
so far come across. I need the landline for broadband, so it makes sense
to use it and reserve the mobile for essential calls when away from home.

I really do wonder what all these people I see walking along the street
with their heads buried in their so-called "smart" phones are doing. Can
they really not survive ten minutes without checking FarceBuke or
Twitface..? How can they see what's on the screen anyway..? Whenever I
tried to use mine in daylight I couldn't see the thing at all..!



I’m usually posting to uk.railway in the few minutes I have between hours
of not being able to use my phone at all ;)


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 18/07/2019 20:26, Recliner wrote:

It's unusual for a land line package to include unlimited calls, 24x7, to
both land lines and mobiles. Conversely, even quite cheap mobile packages
(eg, £7pm) include generous (eg, 1500) numbers of minutes, 24x7, to both
land lines and mobiles.

We're with Sky for FTTC broadband and landline (no TV). Monthly rate is
£35 all in, although I have to admit that was a 'negotiated' rate after
we threatened to leave ;-)

Who is the £7 a month with..? The cheapest mobile contract I can
immediately find just looking quickly was £10 with Three, for two of us
that's £20. Given that we *need* a landline to get broadband, it's a
no-brainer. Also, Three is a lousy signal around here anyway, so there
is little or no chance of using mobile broadband (my experience of it
even in good signal areas is patchy, so zero chance of video streaming etc.)

What do these people with no landlines *do* for their broadband..? They
haven't *all* got VM - even if we wanted that we couldn't have it, as
they don't serve this area and AFAIK have no immediate plans to. And as
I said, mobile broadband in my experience anyway isn't exactly speedy.

--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 18/07/2019 20:26, Recliner wrote:

It's unusual for a land line package to include unlimited calls, 24x7, to
both land lines and mobiles. Conversely, even quite cheap mobile packages
(eg, £7pm) include generous (eg, 1500) numbers of minutes, 24x7, to both
land lines and mobiles.

We're with Sky for FTTC broadband and landline (no TV). Monthly rate is
£35 all in, although I have to admit that was a 'negotiated' rate after
we threatened to leave ;-)

Who is the £7 a month with..?

Virgin (which uses the EE network):
https://www.virginmedia.com/mobile/sim-only/pay-monthly-sim



The cheapest mobile contract I can
immediately find just looking quickly was £10 with Three, for two of us
that's £20. Given that we *need* a landline to get broadband, it's a
no-brainer.

Luckily I no longer need an Openreach phone line to get broadband, and no,
I don't use VM. And my speeds are now much higher, particularly for upload:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/48256450187/in/dateposted/


Also, Three is a lousy signal around here anyway, so there
is little or no chance of using mobile broadband (my experience of it
even in good signal areas is patchy, so zero chance of video streaming etc.)

Yes, it's very location dependent.


What do these people with no landlines *do* for their broadband..? They
haven't *all* got VM - even if we wanted that we couldn't have it, as
they don't serve this area and AFAIK have no immediate plans to. And as
I said, mobile broadband in my experience anyway isn't exactly speedy.


They probably just use mobile data on their phones if out of WiFi range.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 18/07/2019 13:32, Roland Perry wrote:

What kinds of drive-by malware has been known to be delivered via apps
like Facebook and Twitter?

Brexit and Trump?

That’s too true to be funny...

--
Jeremy Double

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 18/07/2019 20:26, Recliner wrote:

It's unusual for a land line package to include unlimited calls, 24x7, to
both land lines and mobiles. Conversely, even quite cheap mobile packages
(eg, £7pm) include generous (eg, 1500) numbers of minutes, 24x7, to both
land lines and mobiles.

We're with Sky for FTTC broadband and landline (no TV). Monthly rate is
£35 all in, although I have to admit that was a 'negotiated' rate after
we threatened to leave ;-)

Who is the £7 a month with..? The cheapest mobile contract I can
immediately find just looking quickly was £10 with Three, for two of us
that's £20. Given that we *need* a landline to get broadband, it's a
no-brainer. Also, Three is a lousy signal around here anyway, so there
is little or no chance of using mobile broadband (my experience of it
even in good signal areas is patchy, so zero chance of video streaming etc.)

What do these people with no landlines *do* for their broadband..? They
haven't *all* got VM - even if we wanted that we couldn't have it, as
they don't serve this area and AFAIK have no immediate plans to. And as
I said, mobile broadband in my experience anyway isn't exactly speedy.


I have a landline installed but it’s never had a telephone connected to it.
In the previous place I lived, I did have a telephone connected, and the
only calls I ever received were for previous users of that number.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 18/07/2019 22:32, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

I have a landline installed but it’s never had a telephone connected to it.
In the previous place I lived, I did have a telephone connected, and the
only calls I ever received were for previous users of that number.

If you have a landline, surely it's cheaper to use it for calls than a
mobile..? For us, it's still cheaper to use our landline than a mobile.
As I said, a mobile is an emergency device for us, 99.9% of the calls we
make can wait until we're home.

We're now on the O2 classic PAYG, no monthly top-up required, just a
call or text every 6 months. 3p/min for calls, 2p/text and 1p/MB data
(which never gets used as the 6310i doesn't do this new-fangled interweb..!)

My other half once made £20 last 4 years..! I've not quite done that,
but I've come close. Why spend money you don't have to..? We might
possibly be able to do without a landline if we didn't need broadband,
but since we do, and we get inclusive calls at a good price, it makes
sense to use it rather than spend oodles on a mobile contract.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 18/07/2019 22:32, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

I have a landline installed but it’s never had a telephone connected to it.
In the previous place I lived, I did have a telephone connected, and the
only calls I ever received were for previous users of that number.

If you have a landline, surely it's cheaper to use it for calls than a
mobile..? For us, it's still cheaper to use our landline than a mobile.

For me the reverse is the case. The mobile comes with unlimited free
minutes and SMS including to mobiles, something the landline doesn’t offer,
so the landline is more expensive to use.

Robin

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 18/07/2019 23:38, bob wrote:
MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 18/07/2019 22:32, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

I have a landline installed but it’s never had a telephone connected to it.
In the previous place I lived, I did have a telephone connected, and the
only calls I ever received were for previous users of that number.

If you have a landline, surely it's cheaper to use it for calls than a
mobile..? For us, it's still cheaper to use our landline than a mobile.

For me the reverse is the case. The mobile comes with unlimited free
minutes and SMS including to mobiles, something the landline doesn’t offer,
so the landline is more expensive to use.

But how much per month are you paying for each..? For us it's a total of
£35 for FTTC broadband (average speed 45 Mb/s) plus a landline with
unlimited calls to landlines and mobiles.

Mobile costs are virtually zero, as we only use them for urgent calls.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 18/07/2019 23:38, bob wrote:
MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 18/07/2019 22:32, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

I have a landline installed but it’s never had a telephone connected to it.
In the previous place I lived, I did have a telephone connected, and the
only calls I ever received were for previous users of that number.

If you have a landline, surely it's cheaper to use it for calls than a
mobile..? For us, it's still cheaper to use our landline than a mobile.

For me the reverse is the case. The mobile comes with unlimited free
minutes and SMS including to mobiles, something the landline doesn’t offer,
so the landline is more expensive to use.

But how much per month are you paying for each..? For us it's a total of
£35 for FTTC broadband (average speed 45 Mb/s) plus a landline with
unlimited calls to landlines and mobiles.

Mobile costs are virtually zero, as we only use them for urgent calls.


One of the current major advantages of mobile contracts is that your
monthly allowances can be used anywhere in the EU. So if you travel
frequently to EU countries, as I do, those included mobile minutes, texts
and data are more useful than any land line equivalents. Whether that will
continue post-Brexit, I have no idea.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 19:31:24 on Thu, 18
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
On 18/07/2019 15:18, Roland Perry wrote:

Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their equivalent
of "standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One I'll be writing
about later (in more detail) in another subthread, is the O2
requirement that PAYG phones wanting to use the tube Wifi are topped
up at least once a month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly is
effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.

It's a slight discount, because the typical top-up would be £10 and the
typical contract £30. And because you can stop any time you like (apart
from some more recent hybrid plans that include a partly-subsidised
phone) it's not in any sense a "contract".

--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 15:43:43 on Thu, 18 Jul
2019, remarked:
Ones where the credit rolls over and you don't have to make a regular
calls to keep them alive, aren't quite as common as you claim. The
networks hate them because they tend to get used in "glovebox" phones
were they have all the costs of maintaining the number and the billing
records, for virtually no revenue.

Oh come on, its costs them precisely £0.00 to maintain a number, its simply
data in a database.

Ah, the marginal costs fallacy rears its ugly head.

The only cost involved in an unused number is the cost to the user when the
phone company disconnects the SIM. The rest of it costs nothing because the
infrastructure would be needed regardless and linking a phone number to a
SIM id is probably a few hundred bytes or less in a DB. You could store the
entire UK phone book and every cellphone IMEI number on a USB stick with room to
spare never mind a fully fledged datacentre.

Let me know when you need a new spade, if that one wears out.

That's even assuming there's facilities which aren't charged to the
operator on a per-number basis.

O2 are not a virtual network.

O2 *are* an operator, they own the base station equipment.

Sure about that? It's not uncommon for it to be outsourced to people
like Ericsson.

They may well have, but any charges relating to the physical layer RF systems
will have nothing to do with how many subscribers the network has in its DB
unless they have so many they need to upgrade.

Ditto. Or are you an expert in the fees charged for outsourcing, now?
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 23:19:05 on Thu, 18
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:

I have a landline installed but it’s never had a telephone connected to it.
In the previous place I lived, I did have a telephone connected, and the
only calls I ever received were for previous users of that number.

If you have a landline, surely it's cheaper to use it for calls than a
mobile..? For us, it's still cheaper to use our landline than a mobile.
As I said, a mobile is an emergency device for us, 99.9% of the calls
we make can wait until we're home.

ObRail: Most of the calls I get from the family's mobiles are "I'm at
the station five miles away, the train's been cancelled, can you come
and pick me up". Which by definition *can't* wait until they get home!!

Or when I'm out and get a call on the mobile: "Can you pick up X at the
shop", which can't wait until *I* get home.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 19:31:24 on Thu, 18
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:

I really do wonder what all these people I see walking along the street
with their heads buried in their so-called "smart" phones are doing.

I'm usually checking whether the train I'm trying to catch is running on
time. It'd be checking the buses, if we had any useful ones where I live
at the moment.

Sometimes I might be looking at Facebook/Twitter, which although some
scoff is simply the latest way to share things with small groups of
people [who these days mainly aren't on Usenet].

Today I'll be looking for an SMS with a magic code to "Click and
Collect" something I bought online [PC not phone] earlier in the week.
But admittedly, a candybar phone would be just as good for that.

"Waiting till I got home" to find the equivalent on a postcard in the
letterbox, would be a bit late.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:31:24 on Thu, 18
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
On 18/07/2019 15:18, Roland Perry wrote:

Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their equivalent
of "standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One I'll be writing
about later (in more detail) in another subthread, is the O2
requirement that PAYG phones wanting to use the tube Wifi are topped
up at least once a month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly is
effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.

It's a slight discount, because the typical top-up would be £10 and the
typical contract £30.

A £30 monthly contract will usually include the phone as well, so you can't
compare it with a PAYG top-up. You need to compare the latter with SIM-only
contracts, and they're typically around £10pm. So PAYG only works out
cheaper if you don't top up every month.

And because you can stop any time you like (apart
from some more recent hybrid plans that include a partly-subsidised
phone) it's not in any sense a "contract".

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 18/07/2019 22:32, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

I have a landline installed but it’s never had a telephone connected to it.
In the previous place I lived, I did have a telephone connected, and the
only calls I ever received were for previous users of that number.

If you have a landline, surely it's cheaper to use it for calls than a
mobile..?

I make voice calls so rarely that I’ve never reached the end of my included
minutes. My current tariff includes unlimited calls in any case; I’ve used
43 minutes in the last month!

For us, it's still cheaper to use our landline than a mobile.
As I said, a mobile is an emergency device for us, 99.9% of the calls we
make can wait until we're home.

We're now on the O2 classic PAYG, no monthly top-up required, just a
call or text every 6 months. 3p/min for calls, 2p/text and 1p/MB data
(which never gets used as the 6310i doesn't do this new-fangled interweb..!)

My other half once made £20 last 4 years..! I've not quite done that,
but I've come close. Why spend money you don't have to..? We might
possibly be able to do without a landline if we didn't need broadband,
but since we do, and we get inclusive calls at a good price, it makes
sense to use it rather than spend oodles on a mobile contract.


I use a lot of mobile data when I’m out and about - on the bus, travelling
by train, sitting in the park, on breaks at work etc. Mostly it’s social
media, maps, messaging and web browsing, including uploading photographs of
days out etc. My laptop often doesn’t get switched on from one month to the
next, I do almost everything I would have used that for, on my phone now.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 19/07/2019 00:21, Recliner wrote:

One of the current major advantages of mobile contracts is that your
monthly allowances can be used anywhere in the EU. So if you travel
frequently to EU countries, as I do, those included mobile minutes, texts
and data are more useful than any land line equivalents. Whether that will
continue post-Brexit, I have no idea.

Hmmm, ok, horses for courses I suppose. We never travel to the EU. If I
go anywhere, it's the US, where I buy a local PAYG SIM for the duration
of my stay. Our landline package charges to the US at 2p/min so not
expensive to ring from home to the US mobile number.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 19/07/2019 12:20, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

I use a lot of mobile data when I’m out and about - on the bus, travelling
by train, sitting in the park, on breaks at work etc. Mostly it’s social
media, maps, messaging and web browsing, including uploading photographs of
days out etc. My laptop often doesn’t get switched on from one month to the
next, I do almost everything I would have used that for, on my phone now.

Hmmm, ok if that's what floats your boat I suppose, but I find fiddling
with phones for that sort of thing extremely tiresome. The laptop comes
with me if I'm away overnight anywhere, and I can do things on a
reasonably sized keyboard and a 14" screen. Nothing I need to do online
is so urgent it can't wait until I'm back wherever I'm staying.

"Social media" are two words that should never have been combined in the
same sentence if you ask me. I've seen teenagers on the bus
communicating with each other by FarceBuke or whatever when they could
just as easily turn their heads and open their mouths. Why..??!!

--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 19/07/2019 06:52, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:31:24 on Thu, 18
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
On 18/07/2019 15:18, Roland Perry wrote:

Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their equivalent
ofÂ* "standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One I'll be
writing aboutÂ* later (in more detail) in another subthread, is the O2
requirement thatÂ* PAYG phones wanting to use the tube Wifi are topped
up at least once aÂ* month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly is
effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.

It's a slight discount, because the typical top-up would be £10 and the
typical contract £30. And because you can stop any time you like (apart
from some more recent hybrid plans that include a partly-subsidised
phone) it's not in any sense a "contract".

Semantics. In all but name it is. If you have to pay a certain amount of
money each month regardless of how much you use it, then to me it's a
contract.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 19:13:03 on Wed, 17 Jul
2019, Tweed remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:49:32 on Wed, 17 Jul
2019, Tweed remarked:

Just for anecdata, my iPhone on Vodafone connects without user intervention
to the Underground WiFi. You don’t need to be a VM customer to use it.

That kind of reciprocal arrangement comes and goes, almost too fast to
keep up. But yes, at the moment some Vodafone plans include the Virgin
Wifi on the tube.

I think you will find all the main networks work with the underground
system. See https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/station-wifi

If we read that as "many customers of any of the main networks..." then
that comes firmly under 'arrangements come and go'.

Vodafone has their particular subset, and as O2 seems to be mentioned
here a lot, here's their particular bit of arm-waving:

"Most current phones with an O2 sim will connect automatically.
You just need to make sure your software is up to date, your
wifi is switched on, and that (if you're on Pay As You Go)
you've topped up in the last 30 days. And you're good to go."

No detail on what they mean by "current phone", and what it is about a
non-current phone that might stop it working. Nor exactly what "up to
date" means. Could be at one extreme "you MUST HAVE Android 9", or at
the other extreme "if you've got whatever the last update your supplier
pushed to you, even if that's only Android 6, you are OK".

And it's not so much a facility for qualifying O2 subscribers, as a
reciprocal arrangement for people who have an O2 wifi account. With
pages of additional instructions on how to jump through hoops get one of
those.

I'm none the wiser (and don't really care at this point) whether all of
this applies equally to Tesco subscribers, who are of course users of
the O2 network, or even if it might apply to a user of any network who
also happened to have signed up to O2 wifi (assuming that's even
possible).
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 14:42:33 on Fri, 19
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:

I've seen teenagers on the bus communicating with each other by
FarceBuke or whatever when they could just as easily turn their heads
and open their mouths.

Not a new thing. In the office where I was working in 2001, people would
email someone sat beside them, to ask when they wanted to go out to
lunch.

It was less intrusive than interrupting their train of thought with a
verbal question.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 14:45:40 on Fri, 19
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their
equivalent of* "standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One
I'll be writing about* later (in more detail) in another subthread,
is the O2 requirement that* PAYG phones wanting to use the tube
Wifi are topped up at least once a* month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly
is effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.
It's a slight discount, because the typical top-up would be £10 and
the typical contract £30. And because you can stop any time you like
(apart from some more recent hybrid plans that include a
partly-subsidised phone) it's not in any sense a "contract".

Semantics. In all but name it is. If you have to pay a certain amount
of money each month regardless of how much you use it, then to me it's
a contract.

It's vastly more than semantics. The whole point of the "contract"
system for mobile phones (and many other infrastructure accounts) is
locking someone in for a minimum period. The impossibility of resigning
early is the only thing about the contract that ever really maters.

--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 19/07/2019 12:20, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

I use a lot of mobile data when I’m out and about - on the bus, travelling
by train, sitting in the park, on breaks at work etc. Mostly it’s social
media, maps, messaging and web browsing, including uploading photographs of
days out etc. My laptop often doesn’t get switched on from one month to the
next, I do almost everything I would have used that for, on my phone now.

Hmmm, ok if that's what floats your boat I suppose, but I find fiddling
with phones for that sort of thing extremely tiresome. The laptop comes
with me if I'm away overnight anywhere, and I can do things on a
reasonably sized keyboard and a 14" screen. Nothing I need to do online
is so urgent it can't wait until I'm back wherever I'm staying.

"Social media" are two words that should never have been combined in the
same sentence if you ask me. I've seen teenagers on the bus
communicating with each other by FarceBuke or whatever when they could
just as easily turn their heads and open their mouths. Why..??!!


Usenet is social media ;)

Facebook is a great way of keeping up to date with friends and
acquaintances who I don’t see for years at a time and don’t have any need
to communicate with regularly on a 1-to-1 basis. It’s also great for
discussions between like-minded individuals on specific topics - rather
like Usenet was back in the day, except that discussions can be controlled
by group admins and trolls can be blocked! Currently the group about GA’s
new Stadler and Bombardier stock is very informative, while the 4 different
HST groups are full of wibble about 43002. The Southend Pier Railway group
continues to teach me new things about one of my favourite railways,
various tram groups (old, new, British and worldwide) are very interesting,
and I’ve learned more about Japanese railways than I thought I could ever
know!


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 08:14:45 on Fri, 19 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:31:24 on Thu, 18
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
On 18/07/2019 15:18, Roland Perry wrote:

Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their equivalent
of "standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One I'll be writing
about later (in more detail) in another subthread, is the O2
requirement that PAYG phones wanting to use the tube Wifi are topped
up at least once a month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly is
effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.

It's a slight discount, because the typical top-up would be £10 and the
typical contract £30.

A £30 monthly contract will usually include the phone as well, so you can't
compare it with a PAYG top-up.

I'm contrasting them.

You need to compare the latter with SIM-only contracts, and they're
typically around £10pm.

You are skirting round the half-way house:

And because you can stop any time you like (apart from some more
recent hybrid plans that include a partly-subsidised phone) it's not
in any sense a "contract".

For example Tesco plans which will sell you a locked phone combined with
a minimum of 12 month pay-monthly SIM for less than a true unlocked
SIM-free one.

So PAYG only works out cheaper if you don't top up every month.

That depends entirely on the underlying cost[s] of the phone hardware
and the respective monthly payments.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 14:13:46 on Fri, 19 Jul
2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:

Facebook is a great way of keeping up to date with friends and
acquaintances who I don’t see for years at a time and don’t have any need
to communicate with regularly on a 1-to-1 basis.

There's also the bods one has never met (but might do one day).

Joking apart, Facebook has sufficient critical mass, and manages to keep
kooks out successfully enough, that it's possible to link up with people
who are almost famous in their day jobs (and will never have heard of
Usenet; nor if they had, be the slightest bit inclined to join in).

It’s also great for
discussions between like-minded individuals on specific topics - rather
like Usenet was back in the day, except that discussions can be controlled
by group admins and trolls can be blocked!

And a refreshing difference between Facebook and moderated Usenet is
that you don't get infantile trolls running around trying to find
"teacher" to complain to if their crap gets rejected. Or moaning about
"freedom of speech" if blocked.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:14:45 on Fri, 19 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:31:24 on Thu, 18
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
On 18/07/2019 15:18, Roland Perry wrote:

Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their equivalent
of "standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One I'll be writing
about later (in more detail) in another subthread, is the O2
requirement that PAYG phones wanting to use the tube Wifi are topped
up at least once a month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly is
effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.

It's a slight discount, because the typical top-up would be £10 and the
typical contract £30.

A £30 monthly contract will usually include the phone as well, so you can't
compare it with a PAYG top-up.

I'm contrasting them.

No, you were comparing them when you said that it was a slight discount.


You need to compare the latter with SIM-only contracts, and they're
typically around £10pm.

You are skirting round the half-way house:

And because you can stop any time you like (apart from some more
recent hybrid plans that include a partly-subsidised phone) it's not
in any sense a "contract".

For example Tesco plans which will sell you a locked phone combined with
a minimum of 12 month pay-monthly SIM for less than a true unlocked
SIM-free one.

So PAYG only works out cheaper if you don't top up every month.

That depends entirely on the underlying cost[s] of the phone hardware
and the respective monthly payments.

No, I was correctly stating that, "PAYG only works out cheaper [than a
SIM-only contract] if you don't top up every month". No phone hardware is
included in either, so its cost is irrelevant.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:13:46 on Fri, 19 Jul
2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:

Facebook is a great way of keeping up to date with friends and
acquaintances who I don’t see for years at a time and don’t have any need
to communicate with regularly on a 1-to-1 basis.

There's also the bods one has never met (but might do one day).


Indeed so! I have comparatively few of those, mostly from this group!

Joking apart, Facebook has sufficient critical mass, and manages to keep
kooks out successfully enough, that it's possible to link up with people
who are almost famous in their day jobs (and will never have heard of
Usenet; nor if they had, be the slightest bit inclined to join in).


Facebook connections being split into Friends (for people) and Pages (for
famous people and organisations) means that I’m unlikely to send a friend
request to the personal profile of someone remotely famous; Twitter OTOH is
much better for that sort of thing, as it has only one level of
'Following'.


Anna Noyd-Dryver