Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering
 

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was
 

On Sun, 21 Jul 2019 09:23:05 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 19:09:38 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month.
Some operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

The difference between 30-day contract, and pay as you go, is very
simple - with PAYG you pay in advance, with the contract you pay
in arrears. (For the calls at least, if not the standing charge
- although these days most calls are covered by the standing
charge anyway so it does become slightly harder to discern the
difference.)


Contract takes its monthly payment automatically until you tell them
otherwise, PAYG requires you to specifically make the payment, surely?
(I’ve never had a payg phone so I can’t be sure)

I think there's some confusion between a phone contract with a legal contract.

Only the c word counts.

PAYG is not a phone contract but is a legal contract for the phone company to
provide you with a service while you still have money on account.

It goes beyond that. Your service is not finally killed off until the
end of the period after which the company will no longer keep your
number on the system. As that is part of the Ts and Cs then your
contract is live until at least the end of that period. If there is no
further obligation then that will be what terminates most contracts
which depend on using the system and/or making a payment before the
end of a specified time period.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering
 

On 21/07/2019 21:32, wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jul 2019 19:55:40 +0100
Someone Somewhere wrote:


Ok Mr Telecoms Expert, exactly how much disk space does all the relevant
information about a single cellular phone number take up then? Obviously you
have the figures to hand so please share them.

Nah - whilst I do know the exact figure (or more to the point I could
look it up), it's getting more and more amusing to see you getting
irate when you seem to truly believe that the only cost is the disk
space - something that if it makes up 0.01% of the cost would surprise me.

If the number belongs to a real network not a virtual one, what are the
other costs then? Unless its used up its entire allocation of numbers it
won't be losing any money so tell me what I've missed. You and Perry are very
good at being supercilious, a bit less hot on supplying actual information.


If I had exact answers I couldn't supply them as I'd clearly be privvy
to contracts between suppliers and networks. If I had other information
I'd also have to be careful about supplying it as it may have been
supplied to me in commercial confidence.

However, what I can say is that you're fundamentally wrong in how you
see costs.

You seem to think you buy an entire network and then add disk space to
hold more subscribers.

Network dimensioning is done on several variables, not just disk storage
(which as I said above is something I don't believe anyone cares about
unless it runs out at the wrong moment).

Networks also consist of lots of components which are bought from lots
of suppliers and each of which is subject to a probably unique agreement
and licensed separately.

So if a network operator goes to Ericsson/Nokia/Siemens/ZTE/Huawei etc
to buy an HLR/HSS (one of the key components in terms of holding
subscribers) then they will not sell you a platform that you can just
chuck more disks in and expand the capacity - it will often be licensed
on an annual basis on various parameters including subscribers -
instantly giving you a per subscriber price.

You may not think that is fair or reasonable, but that's how the market
works (often it's the operators who prefer opex rather than capex
pricing because it better reflects their revenue streams).

And in terms of subscribers it doesn't stop at the HLR/HSS, chuck in the
AuC/AAA, EIR, OCS, CRM, Voicemail, VoLTE AS, IMS core etc etc, each of
which has a vendor who gets their per subscriber piece....

And that's before you get into the scarcity of numbers and the problems
of managing them (telcos got profligate with them and complacently just
used ranges when they could and then allowed those ranges to get sparse
over time, rather than properly reclaiming and reusing them).

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

Am 19.07.2019 um 00:19 schrieb MissRiaElaine:
On 18/07/2019 22:32, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

I have a landline installed but it’s never had a telephone connected
to it.
In the previous place I lived, I did have a telephone connected, and the
only calls I ever received were for previous users of that number.

If you have a landline, surely it's cheaper to use it for calls than a
mobile..? For us, it's still cheaper to use our landline than a mobile.
As I said, a mobile is an emergency device for us, 99.9% of the calls we
make can wait until we're home.

In Germany, this is not the caseany more. You can have a mobile
contract with free calls and SMS to all German numbers for €6 per month;
an land line with free calls to all German land lines and expensive
calls to German mobiles costs €20 per month. My mother-in-law now has a
mobile instead of a land line in her OAP home.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

In article ,
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Usenet is social media ;)

More like antiocial media :-D

--
Natalie M. Amery, http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~nmamery/ #####
"Mm, builders are inconsiderate sometimes. o__#######
Like the one that put the A11 there, \'#######
right under the roof of my car like that ;)" - Aquarius, alt.fan.eddings

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month. Some
operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned

It's not a contract, and calling it such muddies discussion such as
this.

You do also get one-month rolling contracts that actually are
contacts. I have one with Vodafone.

--
Natalie Amery. I cannot tell how silently he suffered,
##### As with his peace he graced this place of tears,
#######__o Or how his heart upon the cross was broken,
#######'/ The crown of pain to three-and-thirty years. - Fullerton.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering
 

In article , wrote:
If the number belongs to a real network not a virtual one, what are the
other costs then? Unless its used up its entire allocation of numbers it
won't be losing any money so tell me what I've missed. You and Perry are very
good at being supercilious, a bit less hot on supplying actual information.

Actually the ways that ofcom charge for number blocks are many and
confusing. Including a proposal (I don't know if it went anywhere)
that they would charge for _unused_ numbers in allocations...


--
Natalie Amery. 'Be still, and acknowledge that I am God,
##### supreme over nations, supreme over the world.'
#######__o Yahweh Saboath is with us,
#######'/ our citadel, the God of Jacob. - Ps46:10-11 (NJB)

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 11:32:50 on Mon,
22 Jul 2019, Natalie Amery remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
You can have one-month rolling contracts, say 0 operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned

It's not a contract, and calling it such muddies discussion such as
this.

You do also get one-month rolling contracts that actually are
contacts. I have one with Vodafone.

For the umpteenth time, I would expect that to come within the hybrid
category I've mentioned.

If you can cancel such an arrangement at any time, then in mobile-speak
it's not "a contract". They are much more of a monthly PAYG auto-topup
(rather than a YouveRunOutOfCredit auto-topup).
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 14:32:55 on Sun, 21 Jul
2019, remarked:
Ok Mr Telecoms Expert, exactly how much disk space does all the relevant
information about a single cellular phone number take up then? Obviously you

have the figures to hand so please share them.

I can't explain something like this when you have completely the wrong
architectural and business model as an underlying assumption.

Go on, live dangerously, give it a go. How much data does it take up? Or are
you going to claim that telecoms companies use dilithium quantum computers
that store information in hyperspace rather than standard databases or hash
maps?

Unless the system is completely insane there should be no relation. Perhaps
you're going to tell us next that radio stations transmitter charges are
based on the number of listeners they have?

A Freeview-type transmitter might well charge based on the number of
stations you wish to transmit (eg CH4 and Ch4+1, costing more than just
Ch4).

Yes, congratulations - because each station takes up bandwidth. How much
bandwidth does an unused phone number use?

Apart from that, your ability to fail to distinguish between
broadcasting and telecoms speaks volumes.

Your refusal to acknowledge an obvious analogy speaks volumes that you've
been painted into a corner.

Let us know when you get to Australia.

I'll take that as a no, you can't back up anything you said. As I suspected.

I'm not here to provide someone as wilfully obtuse as you, a primer in
cellphone architecture. Although we both know you aren't so much being
wilfully obtuse as deliberately trolling.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering
 

In message , at 11:36:51 on Mon,
22 Jul 2019, Natalie Amery remarked:

Actually the ways that ofcom charge for number blocks are many and
confusing. Including a proposal (I don't know if it went anywhere)
that they would charge for _unused_ numbers in allocations...

That sound a bit like double council tax for homes left empty. In other
words, pursuing a public policy objective and nothing at all to do with
"cost-plus" accounting.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 14:00:27 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:25:16 on
Sat, 20 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:

If someone has root on the device I don't think any individual app can
keep itself secure anymore. Many apps will try and detect a jailbroken
device and disable themselves but it isn't clear to me that that detection
is infallible. Better to take reasonable steps to secure the device
which includes security patches IMHO.

My difficulty with this is that even when I had a phone which was
receiving Android updates, they were few and far between. And most
people will be in that same boat.

It's a shame that this is the case but just because most people do
something doesn't mean it is something I want to do. It would be better
if more manufacturers of Internet connected things, not just phones,
had a decent software update commitment.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 15:30:52 on
Mon, 22 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:
On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 14:00:27 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:25:16 on
Sat, 20 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:

If someone has root on the device I don't think any individual app can
keep itself secure anymore. Many apps will try and detect a jailbroken
device and disable themselves but it isn't clear to me that that detection
is infallible. Better to take reasonable steps to secure the device
which includes security patches IMHO.

My difficulty with this is that even when I had a phone which was
receiving Android updates, they were few and far between. And most
people will be in that same boat.

It's a shame that this is the case but just because most people do
something doesn't mean it is something I want to do. It would be better
if more manufacturers of Internet connected things, not just phones,
had a decent software update commitment.

I agree with that (and would have a more useful phone as a result).

But my point as that there's not much evidence that the existing schemes
are causing a huge security problem.

It might help if there weren't quite so many different phones for them
to keep up to date with.

I just checked, and my supplier, LG, have almost 600 different phones in
circulation (in the last 5yrs).
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering
 

On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 08:52:19 +0100
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 21/07/2019 21:32, wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jul 2019 19:55:40 +0100
Someone Somewhere wrote:


Ok Mr Telecoms Expert, exactly how much disk space does all the relevant
information about a single cellular phone number take up then? Obviously
you
have the figures to hand so please share them.

Nah - whilst I do know the exact figure (or more to the point I could
look it up), it's getting more and more amusing to see you getting
irate when you seem to truly believe that the only cost is the disk
space - something that if it makes up 0.01% of the cost would surprise me.

If the number belongs to a real network not a virtual one, what are the
other costs then? Unless its used up its entire allocation of numbers it
won't be losing any money so tell me what I've missed. You and Perry are very

good at being supercilious, a bit less hot on supplying actual information.


If I had exact answers I couldn't supply them as I'd clearly be privvy
to contracts between suppliers and networks. If I had other information
I'd also have to be careful about supplying it as it may have been
supplied to me in commercial confidence.

However, what I can say is that you're fundamentally wrong in how you
see costs.

You seem to think you buy an entire network and then add disk space to
hold more subscribers.

Network dimensioning is done on several variables, not just disk storage

I'd be very surprised if the cost planning didn't take into a given percentage
of unused PAYG numbers at any given time.

So if a network operator goes to Ericsson/Nokia/Siemens/ZTE/Huawei etc
to buy an HLR/HSS (one of the key components in terms of holding
subscribers) then they will not sell you a platform that you can just
chuck more disks in and expand the capacity - it will often be licensed
on an annual basis on various parameters including subscribers -
instantly giving you a per subscriber price.

PAYG isn't done on a subscriber basis though. They may keep a record of
which card was used to pay for the SIM (as I believe cash payment isn't allowed
in the UK now) but that could be all they know about the owner.

And in terms of subscribers it doesn't stop at the HLR/HSS, chuck in the
AuC/AAA, EIR, OCS, CRM, Voicemail, VoLTE AS, IMS core etc etc, each of
which has a vendor who gets their per subscriber piece....

And that's before you get into the scarcity of numbers and the problems
of managing them (telcos got profligate with them and complacently just
used ranges when they could and then allowed those ranges to get sparse
over time, rather than properly reclaiming and reusing them).

At least someone finally stepped up to the plate and explained things.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:32:50 on Mon,
22 Jul 2019, Natalie Amery remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
You can have one-month rolling contracts, say 0 operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned

It's not a contract, and calling it such muddies discussion such as
this.

You do also get one-month rolling contracts that actually are
contacts. I have one with Vodafone.

For the umpteenth time, I would expect that to come within the hybrid
category I've mentioned.

If you can cancel such an arrangement at any time, then in mobile-speak
it's not "a contract". They are much more of a monthly PAYG auto-topup
(rather than a YouveRunOutOfCredit auto-topup).

Maybe you should talk to the nice people at the Vodaphone store about
their use of words then, since the one-month-rolling contract is
otherwise identical to the 12-month lock-in contract (in fact it's the
same terms as the 12-month lock-in contract has after the 12 months
expire).

--
Natalie Amery. Of names of this kind, I can give you a quorum,
##### Like lothlorien, pothole, or kobyashi-maru,
#######__o Such as pearly-gates.vatican, or else diplomatic-
#######'/ Names that never belong to more than one host.- rfc2100

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering
 

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:36:51 on Mon,
22 Jul 2019, Natalie Amery remarked:

Actually the ways that ofcom charge for number blocks are many and
confusing. Including a proposal (I don't know if it went anywhere)
that they would charge for _unused_ numbers in allocations...

That sound a bit like double council tax for homes left empty. In other
words, pursuing a public policy objective and nothing at all to do with
"cost-plus" accounting.

Yes, it's policy objective from ofcom's perspective but it makes a
big difference to the accounting situation as far as the telco is
concerned.

--
Natalie Amery. Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
##### 'Gainst the dragons of anger, the ogres of greed;
#######__o And let me set free, with the sword of my youth,
#######'/ From the castle of darkness the power of truth." - Struther

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 11:12:58 on Tue,
23 Jul 2019, Natalie Amery remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:32:50 on Mon,
22 Jul 2019, Natalie Amery remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
You can have one-month rolling contracts, say 0 operators may
call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned

It's not a contract, and calling it such muddies discussion such as
this.

You do also get one-month rolling contracts that actually are
contacts. I have one with Vodafone.

For the umpteenth time, I would expect that to come within the hybrid
category I've mentioned.

If you can cancel such an arrangement at any time, then in mobile-speak
it's not "a contract". They are much more of a monthly PAYG auto-topup
(rather than a YouveRunOutOfCredit auto-topup).

Maybe you should talk to the nice people at the Vodaphone store about
their use of words then, since the one-month-rolling contract is
otherwise identical to the 12-month lock-in contract (in fact it's the
same terms as the 12-month lock-in contract has after the 12 months
expire).

One fights with marketing people about such things all the time.

(Incidentally, if the two are the same, who on earth would any sane
person sign up to the 12-month minimum version?)
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
(Incidentally, if the two are the same, who on earth would any sane
person sign up to the 12-month minimum version?)

When we got the first three last year the 12-month minimum version
was £1 pcm cheaper (so we took it); but when I got the fourth one a
couple of months ago the prices were identical and the staff member
flat out told us that they could see no reason why you'd take the
12-month.

(if you're getting a contact with phone included I believe they come
in 18-month and 24-month varieties)

--
Natalie Amery. Every fiftieth year
##### Set the captives free:
#######__o Let the trumpet blast
#######'/ Summon jubilee.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering
 

In message , at 11:14:32 on Tue,
23 Jul 2019, Natalie Amery remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:36:51 on Mon,
22 Jul 2019, Natalie Amery remarked:

Actually the ways that ofcom charge for number blocks are many and
confusing. Including a proposal (I don't know if it went anywhere)
that they would charge for _unused_ numbers in allocations...

That sound a bit like double council tax for homes left empty. In other
words, pursuing a public policy objective and nothing at all to do with
"cost-plus" accounting.

Yes, it's policy objective from ofcom's perspective but it makes a
big difference to the accounting situation as far as the telco is
concerned.

I don't doubt that. Hope it doesn't have the consequence of them trying
to evict users from some blocks of numbers in order to hand them back.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 11:27:57 on Tue,
23 Jul 2019, Natalie Amery remarked:
(Incidentally, if the two are the same, who on earth would any sane
person sign up to the 12-month minimum version?)

When we got the first three last year the 12-month minimum version
was £1 pcm cheaper (so we took it); but when I got the fourth one a
couple of months ago the prices were identical and the staff member
flat out told us that they could see no reason why you'd take the
12-month.

I can only assume they are softening up their users to have a rather too
fuzzy impression of what the term "contract" means, and wean them off
the idea of "PAYG". They have form for throwing their less lucrative
customers under the bus (which is not surprising as the most B2B
orientated of the networks).
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering
 

On 23/07/2019 11:34, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:14:32 on Tue,
23 Jul 2019, Natalie Amery remarked:
In article ,
Roland PerryÂ* wrote:
In message , at 11:36:51 on Mon,
22 Jul 2019, Natalie Amery remarked:

Actually the ways that ofcom charge for number blocks are many and
confusing.Â* Including a proposal (I don't know if it went anywhere)
that they would charge for _unused_ numbers in allocations...

That sound a bit like double council tax for homes left empty. In other
words, pursuing a public policy objective and nothing at all to do with
"cost-plus" accounting.

Yes, it's policy objective from ofcom's perspective but it makes a
big difference to the accounting situation as far as the telco is
concerned.

I don't doubt that. Hope it doesn't have the consequence of them trying
to evict users from some blocks of numbers in order to hand them back.

They might try it but common sense is more likely to prevail.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 22/07/2019 10:41, Natalie Amery wrote:
In article ,
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Usenet is social media ;)

More like antiocial media :-D

Right on, comrade..!


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 22/07/2019 10:16, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 19.07.2019 um 00:19 schrieb MissRiaElaine:
On 18/07/2019 22:32, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

I have a landline installed but it’s never had a telephone connected
to it.
In the previous place I lived, I did have a telephone connected, and the
only calls I ever received were for previous users of that number.

If you have a landline, surely it's cheaper to use it for calls than a
mobile..? For us, it's still cheaper to use our landline than a
mobile. As I said, a mobile is an emergency device for us, 99.9% of
the calls we make can wait until we're home.

In Germany, this is not the caseany more.Â* You can have a mobile
contract with free calls and SMS to all German numbers for €6 per month;
an land line with free calls to all German land lines and expensive
calls to German mobiles costs €20 per month.Â* My mother-in-law now has a
mobile instead of a land line in her OAP home.

So how do you get broadband..? *Reliable and fast* mobile broadband is
still some way off, certainly here in the UK.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 23/07/2019 17:27, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
calls to German mobiles costs ?20 per month. My mother-in-law now has a
mobile instead of a land line in her OAP home.
So how do you get broadband..? *Reliable and fast* mobile broadband is still some way off, certainly here in the UK.

That's because the UK has ****ing terrible infrastructure.

I just did a quick speedtest.net test of my mobile broadband:

https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/5143807298


Unfortunately the UK population seems more interested in blaming
foreigners and electing clowns than actually doing anything about
said woeful infrastructure, so ¯\_(?)_/¯.


23-07-2019 16:38:46 (GMT) 10.4 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:54:27 (GMT) 8.2 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:52:52 (GMT) 8.0 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:51:23 (GMT) 3.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:49:57 (GMT) 9.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:41:25 (GMT) 6.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:38:20 (GMT) 7.7 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:23:15 (GMT) 1.3 Mbps 0.4 Mbps EE

This is my crap broadband this afternoon.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

Roland Perry Wrote in message:
When we got the first three last year the 12-month minimum version
was £1 pcm cheaper (so we took it); but when I got the fourth one a
couple of months ago the prices were identical and the staff member
flat out told us that they could see no reason why you'd take the
12-month.
I can only assume they are softening up their users to have a rather too fuzzy impression of what the term "contract" means, and wean them off the idea of "PAYG".

Since I always buy my phones unlocked, with cash, I have had this
type of contract (30-day) from Vodafone for *at least* 7 years,
probably more like a decade. If they're "softening up" their
users, they're taking a ****ing long time over it.

The only person making this complicated is you. It's really very
simple - they have two fundamental offers - Contract (post-pay)
and Pay As You Go (pre-pay).

The contract offering comes with a variety of minimum terms, from
30 days (for SIM only) to 2 or more years (if you also want a
phone subsidy). The choice of minimum term does not change the
nature of the contract. (I just checked, and the name of the APN
for my Voda 30-day SIM - automatically configured by push config
message when you put the SIM in a new phone - is even "Vodafone
Contract Internet".)

(Equally, setting up a monthly automated top-up on pre-pay doesn't
suddenly turn that into a contract, any more than my monthly
scheduled bank credit to Funda?ia Conservation*Carpathia means I
have a contract with them.)


--

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
calls to German mobiles costs ?20 per month. My mother-in-law now has a
mobile instead of a land line in her OAP home.
So how do you get broadband..? *Reliable and fast* mobile broadband is still some way off, certainly here in the UK.

That's because the UK has ****ing terrible infrastructure.

I just did a quick speedtest.net test of my mobile broadband:

https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/5143807298


Unfortunately the UK population seems more interested in blaming
foreigners and electing clowns than actually doing anything about
said woeful infrastructure, so ¯\_(?)_/¯.

--

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 18:59:17 on Tue, 23 Jul
2019, Clank remarked:
Roland Perry Wrote in message:
When we got the first three last year the 12-month minimum version
was £1 pcm cheaper (so we took it); but when I got the fourth one a
couple of months ago the prices were identical and the staff member
flat out told us that they could see no reason why you'd take the
12-month.
I can only assume they are softening up their users to have a rather
too fuzzy impression of what the term "contract" means, and wean them
off the idea of "PAYG".

Since I always buy my phones unlocked, with cash, I have had this
type of contract (30-day) from Vodafone for *at least* 7 years,
probably more like a decade. If they're "softening up" their
users, they're taking a ****ing long time over it.

Have they always called it a "contract", despite being only for 30days?

The only person making this complicated is you. It's really very
simple - they have two fundamental offers - Contract (post-pay)
and Pay As You Go (pre-pay).

And then there's the hybrid deals which are a bit of both, but mainly
PAYG (post-pay).

--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 14:47:53 on Fri, 19 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:14:45 on Fri, 19 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:31:24 on Thu, 18
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
On 18/07/2019 15:18, Roland Perry wrote:

Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their equivalent
of "standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One I'll be writing
about later (in more detail) in another subthread, is the O2
requirement that PAYG phones wanting to use the tube Wifi are topped
up at least once a month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly is
effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.

It's a slight discount, because the typical top-up would be £10 and the
typical contract £30.

A £30 monthly contract will usually include the phone as well, so you can't
compare it with a PAYG top-up.

I'm contrasting them.

No, you were comparing them when you said that it was a slight discount.

I might have been comparing the price (where is the Meercat when you
need him) but contrasting the T&C - most obviously is there a "free
phone" involved.

You need to compare the latter with SIM-only contracts, and they're
typically around £10pm.

You are skirting round the half-way house:

And because you can stop any time you like (apart from some more
recent hybrid plans that include a partly-subsidised phone) it's not
in any sense a "contract".

For example Tesco plans which will sell you a locked phone combined with
a minimum of 12 month pay-monthly SIM for less than a true unlocked
SIM-free one.

So PAYG only works out cheaper if you don't top up every month.

That depends entirely on the underlying cost[s] of the phone hardware
and the respective monthly payments.

No, I was correctly stating that, "PAYG only works out cheaper [than a
SIM-only contract] if you don't top up every month". No phone hardware is
included in either, so its cost is irrelevant.

Sadly, that ignores the specific case I mentioned of Tesco subsidised
hardware on a PAYG deal.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

wrote:
On 23/07/2019 17:27, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
calls to German mobiles costs ?20 per month. My mother-in-law now has a
mobile instead of a land line in her OAP home.
So how do you get broadband..? *Reliable and fast* mobile broadband is
still some way off, certainly here in the UK.

That's because the UK has ****ing terrible infrastructure.

I just did a quick speedtest.net test of my mobile broadband:

https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/5143807298


Unfortunately the UK population seems more interested in blaming
foreigners and electing clowns than actually doing anything about
said woeful infrastructure, so ¯\_(?)_/¯.


23-07-2019 16:38:46 (GMT) 10.4 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:54:27 (GMT) 8.2 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:52:52 (GMT) 8.0 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:51:23 (GMT) 3.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:49:57 (GMT) 9.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:41:25 (GMT) 6.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:38:20 (GMT) 7.7 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:23:15 (GMT) 1.3 Mbps 0.4 Mbps EE

This is my crap broadband this afternoon.


Is that mobile (4G), WiFi or wired data?

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 23/07/2019 22:21, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 17:27, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
calls to German mobiles costs ?20 per month. My mother-in-law now has a
mobile instead of a land line in her OAP home.
So how do you get broadband..? *Reliable and fast* mobile broadband is
still some way off, certainly here in the UK.

That's because the UK has ****ing terrible infrastructure.

I just did a quick speedtest.net test of my mobile broadband:

https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/5143807298


Unfortunately the UK population seems more interested in blaming
foreigners and electing clowns than actually doing anything about
said woeful infrastructure, so ¯\_(?)_/¯.


23-07-2019 16:38:46 (GMT) 10.4 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:54:27 (GMT) 8.2 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:52:52 (GMT) 8.0 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:51:23 (GMT) 3.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:49:57 (GMT) 9.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:41:25 (GMT) 6.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:38:20 (GMT) 7.7 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:23:15 (GMT) 1.3 Mbps 0.4 Mbps EE

This is my crap broadband this afternoon.


Is that mobile (4G), WiFi or wired data?

Sorry. Wired internet.

The amazing thing is I've managed to persuade EE something is wrong!

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

wrote:
On 23/07/2019 22:21, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 17:27, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
calls to German mobiles costs ?20 per month. My mother-in-law now has a
mobile instead of a land line in her OAP home.
So how do you get broadband..? *Reliable and fast* mobile broadband is
still some way off, certainly here in the UK.

That's because the UK has ****ing terrible infrastructure.

I just did a quick speedtest.net test of my mobile broadband:

https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/5143807298


Unfortunately the UK population seems more interested in blaming
foreigners and electing clowns than actually doing anything about
said woeful infrastructure, so ¯\_(?)_/¯.


23-07-2019 16:38:46 (GMT) 10.4 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:54:27 (GMT) 8.2 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:52:52 (GMT) 8.0 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:51:23 (GMT) 3.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:49:57 (GMT) 9.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:41:25 (GMT) 6.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:38:20 (GMT) 7.7 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:23:15 (GMT) 1.3 Mbps 0.4 Mbps EE

This is my crap broadband this afternoon.


Is that mobile (4G), WiFi or wired data?

Sorry. Wired internet.

The amazing thing is I've managed to persuade EE something is wrong!


Is that ADSL or VDSL (ie, FTTC)? It would be mediocre for the former, but
terrible for the latter.

For a period I was getting similar poor performance from my FTTC line. I
kept complaining, and each time they sent an Openreach technician who
usually got me back up to 50Mbps download/10 upload, but it didn't last.
Finally, I told BT that I'd had enough, and demanded that they release me
from my contract. They reluctantly agreed, and I've changed ISP. I've now
got my final BT bill with the hefty cancellation charge, which I hope they
will cancel as promised.

With my new ISP, I now get completely consistent speeds on a wired
connection (it's more variable on WiFi). You probably don't want to look at
the speeds I get now…
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/48239986081/in/dateposted-friend/lightbox/

If I want faster, it's readily available, with no hardware changes, but the
price goes up. However, I really don't think I have any conceivable need
for more.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 23/07/2019 23:12, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 22:21, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 17:27, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
calls to German mobiles costs ?20 per month. My mother-in-law now has a
mobile instead of a land line in her OAP home.
So how do you get broadband..? *Reliable and fast* mobile broadband is
still some way off, certainly here in the UK.

That's because the UK has ****ing terrible infrastructure.

I just did a quick speedtest.net test of my mobile broadband:

https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/5143807298


Unfortunately the UK population seems more interested in blaming
foreigners and electing clowns than actually doing anything about
said woeful infrastructure, so ¯\_(?)_/¯.


23-07-2019 16:38:46 (GMT) 10.4 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:54:27 (GMT) 8.2 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:52:52 (GMT) 8.0 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:51:23 (GMT) 3.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:49:57 (GMT) 9.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:41:25 (GMT) 6.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:38:20 (GMT) 7.7 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:23:15 (GMT) 1.3 Mbps 0.4 Mbps EE

This is my crap broadband this afternoon.


Is that mobile (4G), WiFi or wired data?

Sorry. Wired internet.

The amazing thing is I've managed to persuade EE something is wrong!


Is that ADSL or VDSL (ie, FTTC)? It would be mediocre for the former, but
terrible for the latter.

For a period I was getting similar poor performance from my FTTC line. I
kept complaining, and each time they sent an Openreach technician who
usually got me back up to 50Mbps download/10 upload, but it didn't last.
Finally, I told BT that I'd had enough, and demanded that they release me
from my contract. They reluctantly agreed, and I've changed ISP. I've now
got my final BT bill with the hefty cancellation charge, which I hope they
will cancel as promised.

With my new ISP, I now get completely consistent speeds on a wired
connection (it's more variable on WiFi). You probably don't want to look at
the speeds I get now…
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/48239986081/in/dateposted-friend/lightbox/

If I want faster, it's readily available, with no hardware changes, but the
price goes up. However, I really don't think I have any conceivable need
for more.

It's VDSL. My line is so bad that the maximum realistic speed is 13Mbps
which it has been since it was repaired a few weeks ago. Our evening
storm has just started and the speed has dropped again. Normally this
means the connections in my outside waterproof master socket (which
isn't waterproof) have corroded... again.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

wrote:
On 23/07/2019 23:12, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 22:21, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 17:27, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
calls to German mobiles costs ?20 per month. My mother-in-law now has a
mobile instead of a land line in her OAP home.
So how do you get broadband..? *Reliable and fast* mobile broadband is
still some way off, certainly here in the UK.

That's because the UK has ****ing terrible infrastructure.

I just did a quick speedtest.net test of my mobile broadband:

https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/5143807298


Unfortunately the UK population seems more interested in blaming
foreigners and electing clowns than actually doing anything about
said woeful infrastructure, so ¯\_(?)_/¯.


23-07-2019 16:38:46 (GMT) 10.4 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:54:27 (GMT) 8.2 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:52:52 (GMT) 8.0 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:51:23 (GMT) 3.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:49:57 (GMT) 9.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:41:25 (GMT) 6.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:38:20 (GMT) 7.7 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:23:15 (GMT) 1.3 Mbps 0.4 Mbps EE

This is my crap broadband this afternoon.


Is that mobile (4G), WiFi or wired data?

Sorry. Wired internet.

The amazing thing is I've managed to persuade EE something is wrong!


Is that ADSL or VDSL (ie, FTTC)? It would be mediocre for the former, but
terrible for the latter.

For a period I was getting similar poor performance from my FTTC line. I
kept complaining, and each time they sent an Openreach technician who
usually got me back up to 50Mbps download/10 upload, but it didn't last.
Finally, I told BT that I'd had enough, and demanded that they release me
from my contract. They reluctantly agreed, and I've changed ISP. I've now
got my final BT bill with the hefty cancellation charge, which I hope they
will cancel as promised.

With my new ISP, I now get completely consistent speeds on a wired
connection (it's more variable on WiFi). You probably don't want to look at
the speeds I get now…
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/48239986081/in/dateposted-friend/lightbox/

If I want faster, it's readily available, with no hardware changes, but the
price goes up. However, I really don't think I have any conceivable need
for more.

It's VDSL. My line is so bad that the maximum realistic speed is 13Mbps
which it has been since it was repaired a few weeks ago. Our evening
storm has just started and the speed has dropped again. Normally this
means the connections in my outside waterproof master socket (which
isn't waterproof) have corroded... again.

That's too bad, particularly the upload speeds. You must be a long way from
the cabinet.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 23:25:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

wrote:
On 23/07/2019 23:12, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 22:21, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 17:27, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
calls to German mobiles costs ?20 per month. My mother-in-law now has a
mobile instead of a land line in her OAP home.
So how do you get broadband..? *Reliable and fast* mobile broadband is
still some way off, certainly here in the UK.

That's because the UK has ****ing terrible infrastructure.

I just did a quick speedtest.net test of my mobile broadband:

https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/5143807298


Unfortunately the UK population seems more interested in blaming
foreigners and electing clowns than actually doing anything about
said woeful infrastructure, so ¯\_(?)_/¯.


23-07-2019 16:38:46 (GMT) 10.4 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:54:27 (GMT) 8.2 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:52:52 (GMT) 8.0 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:51:23 (GMT) 3.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:49:57 (GMT) 9.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:41:25 (GMT) 6.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:38:20 (GMT) 7.7 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:23:15 (GMT) 1.3 Mbps 0.4 Mbps EE

This is my crap broadband this afternoon.


Is that mobile (4G), WiFi or wired data?

Sorry. Wired internet.

The amazing thing is I've managed to persuade EE something is wrong!


Is that ADSL or VDSL (ie, FTTC)? It would be mediocre for the former, but
terrible for the latter.

For a period I was getting similar poor performance from my FTTC line. I
kept complaining, and each time they sent an Openreach technician who
usually got me back up to 50Mbps download/10 upload, but it didn't last.
Finally, I told BT that I'd had enough, and demanded that they release me
from my contract. They reluctantly agreed, and I've changed ISP. I've now
got my final BT bill with the hefty cancellation charge, which I hope they
will cancel as promised.

With my new ISP, I now get completely consistent speeds on a wired
connection (it's more variable on WiFi). You probably don't want to look at
the speeds I get now…
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/48239986081/in/dateposted-friend/lightbox/

If I want faster, it's readily available, with no hardware changes, but the
price goes up. However, I really don't think I have any conceivable need
for more.

It's VDSL. My line is so bad that the maximum realistic speed is 13Mbps
which it has been since it was repaired a few weeks ago. Our evening
storm has just started and the speed has dropped again. Normally this
means the connections in my outside waterproof master socket (which
isn't waterproof) have corroded... again.

Outside ? Do you actually mean the terminal block ? None of the jacks
are made for outdoor use.

That's too bad, particularly the upload speeds. You must be a long way from
the cabinet.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

Roland Perry Wrote in message:
Since I always buy my phones unlocked, with cash, I have had this
type of contract (30-day) from Vodafone for *at least* 7 years,
probably more like a decade. If they're "softening up" their
users, they're taking a ****ing long time over it.
Have they always called it a "contract", despite being only for 30days?

Yes.

As an aside, actually you have just prompted me to consider
extending the term to 12 months though, in the interests of
"locking in" the set of free-roaming countries for a year at
least before Brexit... Emergency roaming data is the only reason
I keep that SIM (that and an irrational attachment to a phone
number that's been mine for a couple of decades,) and Vodafone's
roaming deals are actually pretty decent.

The only person making this complicated is you. It's really very
simple - they have two fundamental offers - Contract (post-pay)
and Pay As You Go (pre-pay).
And then there's the hybrid deals which are a bit of both, but mainly PAYG (post-pay).

Please can you provide an example of one of these "hybrid" deals
then? Because I've yet to see one that wasn't just a 30-day
contract.

--

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 23/07/2019 20:07, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 18:59:17 on Tue, 23 Jul
2019, Clank remarked:
Roland Perry Wrote in message:
When we got the first three last year the 12-month minimum version
was £1 pcm cheaper (so we took it); but when I got the fourth one a
couple of months ago the prices were identical and the staff member
flat out told us that they could see no reason why you'd take the
12-month.
I can only assume they are softening up their users to have a rather
too fuzzy impression of what the term "contract" means, and wean them
off the idea of "PAYG".

Since I always buy my phones unlocked, with cash, I have had this
type of contract (30-day) from Vodafone for *at least* 7 years,
probably more like a decade.Â* If they're "softening up" their
users, they're taking a ****ing long time over it.

Have they always called it a "contract", despite being only for 30days?
You still have a paid agreement with them no matter what you or they
call it.

The only person making this complicated is you.Â* It's really very
simple - they have two fundamental offers - Contract (post-pay)
and Pay As You Go (pre-pay).

And then there's the hybrid deals which are a bit of both, but mainly
PAYG (post-pay).

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 24/07/2019 00:25, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 23:12, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 22:21, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 17:27, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
calls to German mobiles costs ?20 per month. My mother-in-law now has a
mobile instead of a land line in her OAP home.
So how do you get broadband..? *Reliable and fast* mobile broadband is
still some way off, certainly here in the UK.

That's because the UK has ****ing terrible infrastructure.

I just did a quick speedtest.net test of my mobile broadband:

https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/5143807298


Unfortunately the UK population seems more interested in blaming
foreigners and electing clowns than actually doing anything about
said woeful infrastructure, so ¯\_(?)_/¯.


23-07-2019 16:38:46 (GMT) 10.4 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:54:27 (GMT) 8.2 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:52:52 (GMT) 8.0 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:51:23 (GMT) 3.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:49:57 (GMT) 9.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:41:25 (GMT) 6.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:38:20 (GMT) 7.7 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:23:15 (GMT) 1.3 Mbps 0.4 Mbps EE

This is my crap broadband this afternoon.


Is that mobile (4G), WiFi or wired data?

Sorry. Wired internet.

The amazing thing is I've managed to persuade EE something is wrong!


Is that ADSL or VDSL (ie, FTTC)? It would be mediocre for the former, but
terrible for the latter.

For a period I was getting similar poor performance from my FTTC line. I
kept complaining, and each time they sent an Openreach technician who
usually got me back up to 50Mbps download/10 upload, but it didn't last.
Finally, I told BT that I'd had enough, and demanded that they release me
from my contract. They reluctantly agreed, and I've changed ISP. I've now
got my final BT bill with the hefty cancellation charge, which I hope they
will cancel as promised.

With my new ISP, I now get completely consistent speeds on a wired
connection (it's more variable on WiFi). You probably don't want to look at
the speeds I get now…
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/48239986081/in/dateposted-friend/lightbox/

If I want faster, it's readily available, with no hardware changes, but the
price goes up. However, I really don't think I have any conceivable need
for more.

It's VDSL. My line is so bad that the maximum realistic speed is 13Mbps
which it has been since it was repaired a few weeks ago. Our evening
storm has just started and the speed has dropped again. Normally this
means the connections in my outside waterproof master socket (which
isn't waterproof) have corroded... again.

That's too bad, particularly the upload speeds. You must be a long way from
the cabinet.

I'm 2.09 Km as the gull flies from the exchange (between Penarth and
Dingle Road railway stations) but I'm about 1.6 K from my cabinet which
is probably at least 2.5 Km electrically from the exchange.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 24/07/2019 05:20, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 23:25:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

wrote:
On 23/07/2019 23:12, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 22:21, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 17:27, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
calls to German mobiles costs ?20 per month. My mother-in-law now has a
mobile instead of a land line in her OAP home.
So how do you get broadband..? *Reliable and fast* mobile broadband is
still some way off, certainly here in the UK.

That's because the UK has ****ing terrible infrastructure.

I just did a quick speedtest.net test of my mobile broadband:

https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/5143807298


Unfortunately the UK population seems more interested in blaming
foreigners and electing clowns than actually doing anything about
said woeful infrastructure, so ¯\_(?)_/¯.


23-07-2019 16:38:46 (GMT) 10.4 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:54:27 (GMT) 8.2 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:52:52 (GMT) 8.0 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:51:23 (GMT) 3.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:49:57 (GMT) 9.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:41:25 (GMT) 6.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:38:20 (GMT) 7.7 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:23:15 (GMT) 1.3 Mbps 0.4 Mbps EE

This is my crap broadband this afternoon.


Is that mobile (4G), WiFi or wired data?

Sorry. Wired internet.

The amazing thing is I've managed to persuade EE something is wrong!


Is that ADSL or VDSL (ie, FTTC)? It would be mediocre for the former, but
terrible for the latter.

For a period I was getting similar poor performance from my FTTC line. I
kept complaining, and each time they sent an Openreach technician who
usually got me back up to 50Mbps download/10 upload, but it didn't last.
Finally, I told BT that I'd had enough, and demanded that they release me
from my contract. They reluctantly agreed, and I've changed ISP. I've now
got my final BT bill with the hefty cancellation charge, which I hope they
will cancel as promised.

With my new ISP, I now get completely consistent speeds on a wired
connection (it's more variable on WiFi). You probably don't want to look at
the speeds I get now…
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/48239986081/in/dateposted-friend/lightbox/

If I want faster, it's readily available, with no hardware changes, but the
price goes up. However, I really don't think I have any conceivable need
for more.

It's VDSL. My line is so bad that the maximum realistic speed is 13Mbps
which it has been since it was repaired a few weeks ago. Our evening
storm has just started and the speed has dropped again. Normally this
means the connections in my outside waterproof master socket (which
isn't waterproof) have corroded... again.

Outside ? Do you actually mean the terminal block ? None of the jacks
are made for outdoor use.
BT do have an outdoor waterproof socket available. It can be quite fun
as most engineers have not seen one before.

That's too bad, particularly the upload speeds. You must be a long way from
the cabinet.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

wrote:
On 24/07/2019 00:25, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 23:12, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 22:21, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 23/07/2019 17:27, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
calls to German mobiles costs ?20 per month. My mother-in-law now has a
mobile instead of a land line in her OAP home.
So how do you get broadband..? *Reliable and fast* mobile broadband is
still some way off, certainly here in the UK.

That's because the UK has ****ing terrible infrastructure.

I just did a quick speedtest.net test of my mobile broadband:

https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/5143807298


Unfortunately the UK population seems more interested in blaming
foreigners and electing clowns than actually doing anything about
said woeful infrastructure, so ¯\_(?)_/¯.


23-07-2019 16:38:46 (GMT) 10.4 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:54:27 (GMT) 8.2 Mbps 0.5 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:52:52 (GMT) 8.0 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:51:23 (GMT) 3.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:49:57 (GMT) 9.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:41:25 (GMT) 6.1 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:38:20 (GMT) 7.7 Mbps 0.6 Mbps EE
23-07-2019 15:23:15 (GMT) 1.3 Mbps 0.4 Mbps EE

This is my crap broadband this afternoon.


Is that mobile (4G), WiFi or wired data?

Sorry. Wired internet.

The amazing thing is I've managed to persuade EE something is wrong!


Is that ADSL or VDSL (ie, FTTC)? It would be mediocre for the former, but
terrible for the latter.

For a period I was getting similar poor performance from my FTTC line. I
kept complaining, and each time they sent an Openreach technician who
usually got me back up to 50Mbps download/10 upload, but it didn't last.
Finally, I told BT that I'd had enough, and demanded that they release me
from my contract. They reluctantly agreed, and I've changed ISP. I've now
got my final BT bill with the hefty cancellation charge, which I hope they
will cancel as promised.

With my new ISP, I now get completely consistent speeds on a wired
connection (it's more variable on WiFi). You probably don't want to look at
the speeds I get now…
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/48239986081/in/dateposted-friend/lightbox/

If I want faster, it's readily available, with no hardware changes, but the
price goes up. However, I really don't think I have any conceivable need
for more.

It's VDSL. My line is so bad that the maximum realistic speed is 13Mbps
which it has been since it was repaired a few weeks ago. Our evening
storm has just started and the speed has dropped again. Normally this
means the connections in my outside waterproof master socket (which
isn't waterproof) have corroded... again.

That's too bad, particularly the upload speeds. You must be a long way from
the cabinet.

I'm 2.09 Km as the gull flies from the exchange (between Penarth and
Dingle Road railway stations) but I'm about 1.6 K from my cabinet which
is probably at least 2.5 Km electrically from the exchange.


If you have FTTC, it's only the cable distance between your router and the
cabinet that matters; the copper cable from the cabinet to the exchange
only affects voice calls. And, yes, 1.6km from the cabinet will give very
low speeds. In theory, you could get up to about 20 Mbps if the cables and
joints between you and the cabinet are in good condition:

https://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/2013/chart-bt-fttc-vdsl2-speed-against-distance

I'm about 500m from my cabinet, and got download speeds up to about 51
Mbps, but usually less, and up to 11 Mbps upload. It's nice to get a
reliable 165 Mbps now, both down and up.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 08:39:21 on Wed, 24 Jul
2019, remarked:

Have they always called it a "contract", despite being only for
30days?

You still have a paid agreement with them no matter what you or they
call it.

That's never been in dispute. It's the wording used which is confusing
people.

If I buy a first class stamp, I have a legal contract with the Post
Office (to deliver one letter). But when they talk about 'contracts'
they mean long term high volume business.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 09:13:10 on Wed, 24 Jul
2019, Clank remarked:

Please can you provide an example of one of these "hybrid" deals
then?

Virgin pay-monthly.

Because I've yet to see one that wasn't just a 30-day contract.
And therein lies your denial about the terminology.
--
Roland Perry