Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , MissRiaElaine
writes

"Social media" are two words that should never have been combined in
the same sentence if you ask me. I've seen teenagers on the bus
communicating with each other by FarceBuke or whatever when they could
just as easily turn their heads and open their mouths. Why..??!!

Nothing new there. I used to know a couple about 15 years ago, they used
to play Scrabble online - She in the bedroom on the laptop, him in the
living room on the desktop.
I asked them why they didn't just buy a Scrabble board. ( I discovered
why when I played with her online sometimes - it's easier to cheat
online!!)
--
Bryan Morris

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:42:33 on Fri, 19
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:

I've seen teenagers on the bus communicating with each other by
FarceBuke or whatever when they could just as easily turn their heads
and open their mouths.

Not a new thing. In the office where I was working in 2001, people would
email someone sat beside them, to ask when they wanted to go out to
lunch.

It was less intrusive than interrupting their train of thought with a
verbal question.

There are probably quite a few people in their late 50’s who look with
askance at young people communicating in the various ways now possible ,
and forget that they sat within an old car chatting with their friends
also sat in various older cars parked a few yards away in the same car park
using a technically illegal CB
radio because they could and it was a little bit naughty.


I’m of the generation where the phone was kept for really important calls
like Dads business and speaking to relatives that involved making a Trunk
call only happened a few times a year, growing up on an isolated farm
meant that at Weekends and School holidays regular contact with school
chums was confined to a couple of mates who were in convenient cycling
distance at roughly a four mile round trip.
Youngsters today with communication freedom can stay in contact with a far
wider social circle if they wish which on the whole probably isn’t a bad
thing though it does of course mean they can reach or be reached by
more undesirables.
And as for communicating by opening their mouths, well how long will it
take too describe a photograph or video accurately, easier to just send it.
The Railways ,Trams and the Bicycle were amongst the first step changes to
allowing a greater number of people to interact outside their immediate
community, then cars but youngsters cannot not get their hands on those
till they are almost adults and even then running one can be too expensive.
Keeping in constant touch using their phone may look annoying to some of
us older people but is probably a lot safer than going to and especially
from the pub to meet friends and then drinking far too much which was
regarded as fairly normal in my teens .
The present generation of young do far less of that than we did.
My Sister said of her two millennial children ,if they had been around
when I was their age we would have considered them a bit boring.

GH

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 15:14:00 on Fri, 19 Jul
2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:

Facebook has sufficient critical mass, and manages to keep
kooks out successfully enough, that it's possible to link up with people
who are almost famous in their day jobs (and will never have heard of
Usenet; nor if they had, be the slightest bit inclined to join in).

Facebook connections being split into Friends (for people) and Pages (for
famous people and organisations) means that I’m unlikely to send a friend
request to the personal profile of someone remotely famous; Twitter OTOH is
much better for that sort of thing, as it has only one level of
'Following'.

I follow vanishingly few "pages" which are dedicated to people (rather
than organisations), but of late I've been joining lots of closed
groups. Like 'Mainline Steam Specials'.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 15:32:43 on Fri, 19
Jul 2019, Marland remarked:

There are probably quite a few people in their late 50’s who look
with askance at young people communicating in the various ways now
possible , and forget that they sat within an old car chatting with
their friends also sat in various older cars parked a few yards away in
the same car park using a technically illegal CB radio because they
could and it was a little bit naughty.

Although I was never licenced (and hence never practised) myself, I used
to hang out when I was still at school with sundry "2 Metre" radio hams
(as they hate to be called). A couple of them even had cars with mobile
equipment in. Not bad for almost 50yrs ago. Transistorised too (which
was how I got into electronics, really, and see how that turned out).

Later, this bunch of retrobates: https://www.g6uw.org/introduction
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 14:36:40 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:32:23 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:07:01 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 19:03:26 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:15:25 on
Wed, 17 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:
Ooh, that's a bit strong..! What's wrong with old phones, anyway..?

For a 'dumbphone', not a lot.

Using a smartphone once it no longer receives security patches isn't
something I would do personally.

What's the main threat you are trying to avoid?

Mostly some malware getting installed via a remote or drive-by
vulnerability.

What kinds of drive-by malware has been known to be delivered via apps
like Facebook and Twitter?

I'm not aware of any but I use many other apps on my smartphone such
as Chrome which has had bugs exploited in the past. One example is at
https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2016...droid-malware/.
That still requires an extra step but a similar bug might not.

That's fixed by an upgrade to the browser app, which I don't regard as
coming into the category of "software patches [that one might no longer
be getting].

My phone which isn't getting *Android* updates, has still managed to
automatically update itself to Chrome dated 4th June 2019. Which is the
latest release version.

What is the malware trying to achieve.

Perhaps it will be combined with some kind of permissions exploit that
means it can harvest data from other apps which in my case would include
my banking details/tokens. I could not have banking apps on my smartphone
but I choose to for the convenience and balance some of the risk by
having an up to date OS. Your choice might be different.

Indeed. I would never have a banking app on my phone unless it was of
very little importance. Although like Chrome, I'd hope to be getting
updates to the *app* which in turn had countermeasures for know exploits
within *Android*.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 19/07/2019 15:05, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:42:33 on Fri, 19
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:

I've seen teenagers on the bus communicating with each other by
FarceBuke or whatever when they could just as easily turn their heads
and open their mouths.

Not a new thing. In the office where I was working in 2001, people would
email someone sat beside them, to ask when they wanted to go out to lunch.

It was less intrusive than interrupting their train of thought with a
verbal question.

Blimey, what were they thinking about..? Government policy..? (Sorry,
that just slipped out..)

--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 19/07/2019 15:07, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:45:40 on Fri, 19
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their
equivalentÂ* ofÂ* "standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One
I'll beÂ* writing aboutÂ* later (in more detail) in another
subthread, is the O2Â* requirement thatÂ* PAYG phones wanting to use
the tube Wifi are toppedÂ* up at least once aÂ* month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly
isÂ* effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.
Â*It's a slight discount, because the typical top-up would be £10 and
theÂ* typical contract £30. And because you can stop any time you like
(apartÂ* from some more recent hybrid plans that include a
partly-subsidisedÂ* phone) it's not in any sense a "contract".

Semantics. In all but name it is. If you have to pay a certain amount
of money each month regardless of how much you use it, then to me it's
a contract.

It's vastly more than semantics. The whole point of the "contract"
system for mobile phones (and many other infrastructure accounts) is
locking someone in for a minimum period. The impossibility of resigning
early is the only thing about the contract that ever really maters.

You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month. Some
operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

For my usage, PAYG with no topup required fits the bill. Why would I pay
more..?


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 19/07/2019 15:07, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:45:40 on Fri, 19
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their
equivalentÂ* ofÂ* "standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One
I'll beÂ* writing aboutÂ* later (in more detail) in another
subthread, is the O2Â* requirement thatÂ* PAYG phones wanting to use
the tube Wifi are toppedÂ* up at least once aÂ* month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly
isÂ* effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.
Â*It's a slight discount, because the typical top-up would be £10 and
theÂ* typical contract £30. And because you can stop any time you like
(apartÂ* from some more recent hybrid plans that include a
partly-subsidisedÂ* phone) it's not in any sense a "contract".

Semantics. In all but name it is. If you have to pay a certain amount
of money each month regardless of how much you use it, then to me it's
a contract.

It's vastly more than semantics. The whole point of the "contract"
system for mobile phones (and many other infrastructure accounts) is
locking someone in for a minimum period. The impossibility of resigning
early is the only thing about the contract that ever really maters.

You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month. Some
operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

No PAYG deals require monthly top-ups.


For my usage, PAYG with no topup required fits the bill. Why would I pay
more..?

I used to be on PAYG, and am very glad now to be on a SIM-only contract —
it makes my mobile phone so much more useful. I now realise how silly I was
to stay on PAYG for so long.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 22:56:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 19/07/2019 15:07, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:45:40 on Fri, 19
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their
equivalent* of* "standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One
I'll be* writing about* later (in more detail) in another
subthread, is the O2* requirement that* PAYG phones wanting to use
the tube Wifi are topped* up at least once a* month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly
is* effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.
*It's a slight discount, because the typical top-up would be £10 and
the* typical contract £30. And because you can stop any time you like
(apart* from some more recent hybrid plans that include a
partly-subsidised* phone) it's not in any sense a "contract".

Semantics. In all but name it is. If you have to pay a certain amount
of money each month regardless of how much you use it, then to me it's
a contract.

It's vastly more than semantics. The whole point of the "contract"
system for mobile phones (and many other infrastructure accounts) is
locking someone in for a minimum period. The impossibility of resigning
early is the only thing about the contract that ever really maters.

You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month. Some
operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

No PAYG deals require monthly top-ups.

Yes they can.
para 15 in :-
https://www.o2.co.uk/termsandconditi...o-tariff-terms
and IIRC any other providers where you get more than just a simple
charge for each minute, megabyte or text on PAYG.


For my usage, PAYG with no topup required fits the bill. Why would I pay
more..?

I used to be on PAYG, and am very glad now to be on a SIM-only contract —
it makes my mobile phone so much more useful. I now realise how silly I was
to stay on PAYG for so long.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 23:41:26 on Fri, 19
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:

I've seen teenagers on the bus communicating with each other by
FarceBuke or whatever when they could just as easily turn their heads
and open their mouths.

Not a new thing. In the office where I was working in 2001, people
would email someone sat beside them, to ask when they wanted to go
out to lunch.
It was less intrusive than interrupting their train of thought with
a verbal question.

Blimey, what were they thinking about..? Government policy..? (Sorry,
that just slipped out..)

Internet-core engineering mainly.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 23:50:43 on Fri, 19
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their
equivalent* of* "standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One
I'll be* writing about* later (in more detail) in another
subthread, is the O2* requirement that* PAYG phones wanting to use
the tube Wifi are topped* up at least once a* month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly
is* effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.
*It's a slight discount, because the typical top-up would be £10
and the* typical contract £30. And because you can stop any time
you like (apart* from some more recent hybrid plans that include a
partly-subsidised* phone) it's not in any sense a "contract".

Semantics. In all but name it is. If you have to pay a certain
amount of money each month regardless of how much you use it, then
to me it's a contract.
It's vastly more than semantics. The whole point of the "contract"
system for mobile phones (and many other infrastructure accounts) is
locking someone in for a minimum period. The impossibility of
resigning early is the only thing about the contract that ever really


You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month. Some
operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned

It's not a contract, and calling it such muddies discussion such as
this.

and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

Apart from the cost (if you are a very low user), what's wrong with
them?

For my usage, PAYG with no topup required fits the bill. Why would I
pay more..?

What works for you doesn't necessarily work for others.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 22:56:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 19/07/2019 15:07, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:45:40 on Fri, 19
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their
equivalentÂ* ofÂ* "standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One
I'll beÂ* writing aboutÂ* later (in more detail) in another
subthread, is the O2Â* requirement thatÂ* PAYG phones wanting to use
the tube Wifi are toppedÂ* up at least once aÂ* month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly
isÂ* effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.
Â*It's a slight discount, because the typical top-up would be £10 and
theÂ* typical contract £30. And because you can stop any time you like
(apartÂ* from some more recent hybrid plans that include a
partly-subsidisedÂ* phone) it's not in any sense a "contract".

Semantics. In all but name it is. If you have to pay a certain amount
of money each month regardless of how much you use it, then to me it's
a contract.

It's vastly more than semantics. The whole point of the "contract"
system for mobile phones (and many other infrastructure accounts) is
locking someone in for a minimum period. The impossibility of resigning
early is the only thing about the contract that ever really maters.

You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month. Some
operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

No PAYG deals require monthly top-ups.

Yes they can.
para 15 in :-
https://www.o2.co.uk/termsandconditi...o-tariff-terms
and IIRC any other providers where you get more than just a simple
charge for each minute, megabyte or text on PAYG.

Para 15?

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 22:56:58 on Fri, 19 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked:
MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 19/07/2019 15:07, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:45:40 on Fri, 19
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their
equivalent* of* "standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One
I'll be* writing about* later (in more detail) in another
subthread, is the O2* requirement that* PAYG phones wanting to use
the tube Wifi are topped* up at least once a* month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly
is* effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.
*It's a slight discount, because the typical top-up would be £10 and
the* typical contract £30. And because you can stop any time you like
(apart* from some more recent hybrid plans that include a
partly-subsidised* phone) it's not in any sense a "contract".

Semantics. In all but name it is. If you have to pay a certain amount
of money each month regardless of how much you use it, then to me it's
a contract.

It's vastly more than semantics. The whole point of the "contract"
system for mobile phones (and many other infrastructure accounts) is
locking someone in for a minimum period. The impossibility of resigning
early is the only thing about the contract that ever really maters.

You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month. Some
operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

No PAYG deals require monthly top-ups.

Some do, if you want to keep all the benefits (specifically something
like O2's access to tube-wifi).

Or if you want to stay making[1] calls at all, if the credit expires at
the end of each month. But after a period of complete inactivity you'll
likely lose the number, timescale depending on the network.

[1] Inbound termination fees, especially from classic landlines, are
lucrative, and so you'll probably retain the ability to receive
calls.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 06:48:46 on Sat, 20 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked:
No PAYG deals require monthly top-ups.

Yes they can.
para 15 in :-
https://www.o2.co.uk/termsandconditi...o-tariff-terms
and IIRC any other providers where you get more than just a simple
charge for each minute, megabyte or text on PAYG.

Para 15?

Take a wild stab at para 1.5 instead.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:56:58 on Fri, 19 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked:
MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 19/07/2019 15:07, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:45:40 on Fri, 19
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
Networks have tried hard over the years to introduce their
equivalentÂ* ofÂ* "standing charges" to fight back a little bit. One
I'll beÂ* writing aboutÂ* later (in more detail) in another
subthread, is the O2Â* requirement thatÂ* PAYG phones wanting to use
the tube Wifi are toppedÂ* up at least once aÂ* month.

A standing charge equals a contract. Making someone top up monthly
isÂ* effectively forcing them onto one in all but name.
Â*It's a slight discount, because the typical top-up would be £10 and
theÂ* typical contract £30. And because you can stop any time you like
(apartÂ* from some more recent hybrid plans that include a
partly-subsidisedÂ* phone) it's not in any sense a "contract".

Semantics. In all but name it is. If you have to pay a certain amount
of money each month regardless of how much you use it, then to me it's
a contract.

It's vastly more than semantics. The whole point of the "contract"
system for mobile phones (and many other infrastructure accounts) is
locking someone in for a minimum period. The impossibility of resigning
early is the only thing about the contract that ever really maters.

You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month. Some
operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

No PAYG deals require monthly top-ups.

Some do, if you want to keep all the benefits (specifically something
like O2's access to tube-wifi).

Sure, and the same applies with Virgin PAYG: when i was on it, you never
had to top up, but there were additional benefits in the month after a
top-up of £10 or more. The way it worked was that the £10 got added to
your credit balance, where it lasted indefinitely, and could be used to pay
for calls, data and texts. But you got some additional benefits in the
month after a top-up that didn't carry over. This included Tube WiFi access
and 1GB of data. It may be different now



Or if you want to stay making[1] calls at all, if the credit expires at
the end of each month.
But after a period of complete inactivity you'll
likely lose the number, timescale depending on the network.

Yes, I think that's common, if not universal.


[1] Inbound termination fees, especially from classic landlines, are
lucrative, and so you'll probably retain the ability to receive
calls.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 21:32:17 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:36:40 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:32:23 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:07:01 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 19:03:26 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:15:25 on
Wed, 17 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:
Ooh, that's a bit strong..! What's wrong with old phones, anyway..?

For a 'dumbphone', not a lot.

Using a smartphone once it no longer receives security patches isn't
something I would do personally.

What's the main threat you are trying to avoid?

Mostly some malware getting installed via a remote or drive-by
vulnerability.

What kinds of drive-by malware has been known to be delivered via apps
like Facebook and Twitter?

I'm not aware of any but I use many other apps on my smartphone such
as Chrome which has had bugs exploited in the past. One example is at
https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2016...droid-malware/.
That still requires an extra step but a similar bug might not.

That's fixed by an upgrade to the browser app, which I don't regard as
coming into the category of "software patches [that one might no longer
be getting].

My phone which isn't getting *Android* updates, has still managed to
automatically update itself to Chrome dated 4th June 2019. Which is the
latest release version.

There is a list of 5 remote code execution
bugs in Android that have been patched this month at
https://source.android.com/security/bulletin/2019-07-01. It's a similar
list for June, May, April etc.

What is the malware trying to achieve.

Perhaps it will be combined with some kind of permissions exploit that
means it can harvest data from other apps which in my case would include
my banking details/tokens. I could not have banking apps on my smartphone
but I choose to for the convenience and balance some of the risk by
having an up to date OS. Your choice might be different.

Indeed. I would never have a banking app on my phone unless it was of
very little importance. Although like Chrome, I'd hope to be getting
updates to the *app* which in turn had countermeasures for know exploits
within *Android*.

If someone has root on the device I don't think any individual app can
keep itself secure anymore. Many apps will try and detect a jailbroken
device and disable themselves but it isn't clear to me that that detection
is infallible. Better to take reasonable steps to secure the device
which includes security patches IMHO.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 20/07/2019 09:25, David Walters wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 21:32:17 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:36:40 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:32:23 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:07:01 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 19:03:26 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:15:25 on
Wed, 17 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:
Ooh, that's a bit strong..! What's wrong with old phones, anyway..?

For a 'dumbphone', not a lot.

Using a smartphone once it no longer receives security patches isn't
something I would do personally.

What's the main threat you are trying to avoid?

Mostly some malware getting installed via a remote or drive-by
vulnerability.

What kinds of drive-by malware has been known to be delivered via apps
like Facebook and Twitter?

I'm not aware of any but I use many other apps on my smartphone such
as Chrome which has had bugs exploited in the past. One example is at
https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2016...droid-malware/.
That still requires an extra step but a similar bug might not.

That's fixed by an upgrade to the browser app, which I don't regard as
coming into the category of "software patches [that one might no longer
be getting].

My phone which isn't getting *Android* updates, has still managed to
automatically update itself to Chrome dated 4th June 2019. Which is the
latest release version.

There is a list of 5 remote code execution
bugs in Android that have been patched this month at
https://source.android.com/security/bulletin/2019-07-01. It's a similar
list for June, May, April etc.

What is the malware trying to achieve.

Perhaps it will be combined with some kind of permissions exploit that
means it can harvest data from other apps which in my case would include
my banking details/tokens. I could not have banking apps on my smartphone
but I choose to for the convenience and balance some of the risk by
having an up to date OS. Your choice might be different.

Indeed. I would never have a banking app on my phone unless it was of
very little importance. Although like Chrome, I'd hope to be getting
updates to the *app* which in turn had countermeasures for know exploits
within *Android*.

If someone has root on the device I don't think any individual app can
keep itself secure anymore. Many apps will try and detect a jailbroken
device and disable themselves but it isn't clear to me that that detection
is infallible. Better to take reasonable steps to secure the device
which includes security patches IMHO.

I have a device which I know is not jailbroken but the Wetherspoon
ordering app insists otherwise.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 23:41:26 +0100, MissRiaElaine
wrote:

On 19/07/2019 15:05, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:42:33 on Fri, 19
Jul 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:

I've seen teenagers on the bus communicating with each other by
FarceBuke or whatever when they could just as easily turn their heads
and open their mouths.

Not a new thing. In the office where I was working in 2001, people would
email someone sat beside them, to ask when they wanted to go out to lunch.

It was less intrusive than interrupting their train of thought with a
verbal question.

Blimey, what were they thinking about..? Government policy..? (Sorry,
that just slipped out..)

I expect they were thinking about work.

The importance of "the zone" to productivity in highly mind-based work
(such as programing or engineering) is rarely understood by those not
experienced in such roles. Unfortunately, some of those people are
colleagues from another department, or, worse, management.

Mark

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
On 19/07/2019 00:21, Recliner wrote:
One of the current major advantages of mobile contracts is that your
monthly allowances can be used anywhere in the EU. So if you travel
frequently to EU countries, as I do, those included mobile minutes, texts
and data are more useful than any land line equivalents.

That's not unique to a contract though - I use a PAYG SIM at home
in Romania (because, well, why not - for a ?10 top-up a month I
get 20GB data with 150Mb/s download, and I can't see why a
contract would make life easier, since I do the top ups with
about two taps on an app) and I have free EU Roaming from that
allowance. (I believe if you top up less than ?10/month EU data
roaming is blocked though.)

I do keep an old UK number on a 30-day Vodafone contract, but not
for use in Europe because it only has a measly 2GB allowance for
about 16 quid a month - but it does have a handy "Roam Further"
feature where for a flat 6 quid a day I can use that allowance
worldwide. Very handy if stopping over in a country where buying
a SIM is too much hassle, or if I'm just not hanging around there
long enough to matter. Also handy in China where it's an easy
way round the Great Firewall without faffing around with
VPNs.



(As for landlines - I don't even have one, and haven't for years.
I have to assume there is some capability for plugging a phone
into my home cable connection but I've never tried it - and if I
have a number it's news to me. Even when I lived in the UK the
landline was the exclusive purvey of junk callers.)

--

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month.
Some operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

The difference between 30-day contract, and pay as you go, is very
simple - with PAYG you pay in advance, with the contract you pay
in arrears. (For the calls at least, if not the standing charge
- although these days most calls are covered by the standing
charge anyway so it does become slightly harder to discern the
difference.)

--

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:54:13 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:43:43 on Thu, 18 Jul
2019, remarked:
Ones where the credit rolls over and you don't have to make a regular
calls to keep them alive, aren't quite as common as you claim. The
networks hate them because they tend to get used in "glovebox" phones
were they have all the costs of maintaining the number and the billing
records, for virtually no revenue.

Oh come on, its costs them precisely £0.00 to maintain a number, its simply

data in a database.

Ah, the marginal costs fallacy rears its ugly head.

The only cost involved in an unused number is the cost to the user when the
phone company disconnects the SIM. The rest of it costs nothing because the
infrastructure would be needed regardless and linking a phone number to a
SIM id is probably a few hundred bytes or less in a DB. You could store the
entire UK phone book and every cellphone IMEI number on a USB stick with room
to
spare never mind a fully fledged datacentre.

Let me know when you need a new spade, if that one wears out.

Ok Mr Telecoms Expert, exactly how much disk space does all the relevant
information about a single cellular phone number take up then? Obviously you
have the figures to hand so please share them.

They may well have, but any charges relating to the physical layer RF systems
will have nothing to do with how many subscribers the network has in its DB
unless they have so many they need to upgrade.

Ditto. Or are you an expert in the fees charged for outsourcing, now?

Unless the system is completely insane there should be no relation. Perhaps
you're going to tell us next that radio stations transmitter charges are
based on the number of listeners they have?

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 20/07/2019 10:45, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month.
Some operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

The difference between 30-day contract, and pay as you go, is very
simple - with PAYG you pay in advance, with the contract you pay
in arrears. (For the calls at least, if not the standing charge
- although these days most calls are covered by the standing
charge anyway so it does become slightly harder to discern the
difference.)

Now that *is* semantics. In all but name, it's a contract. Or equivalent
to one, which amounts to the same thing.

As far as I'm concerned, PAYG is just that. Paying per month is not
paying as you go, it's paying regularly, which is to me a contract. I
pay monthly for my landline/broadband access, but that's as far as I go
with telecomms. I use the landline extensively, so inclusive calls makes
sense. I use the mobile so rarely (for outgoing calls, people seem to
think I don't have a landline, so always ring me on the mobile, go
figure) that it is nothing short of idiotic to pay almost as much as I
do for the landline for it.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 09:25:16 on
Sat, 20 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:

If someone has root on the device I don't think any individual app can
keep itself secure anymore. Many apps will try and detect a jailbroken
device and disable themselves but it isn't clear to me that that detection
is infallible. Better to take reasonable steps to secure the device
which includes security patches IMHO.

My difficulty with this is that even when I had a phone which was
receiving Android updates, they were few and far between. And most
people will be in that same boat.

And yet there's not utter chaos that can be traced back to exploits.

I'm not saying that it's possible to ignore the possibility completely,
but there comes a point when a lot of phones don't have much worth
stealing from them.

I's far far more important for people to moderate their *ordinary*
behaviour on phones, to reduce the risks. As I've said in similar
contexts in the pat, patching your Operating System, or running a Virus
Checker, is very unlikely to stop you being conned into buying a fake
Rolex, or having a password written on a post-it note.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 16:45:19 on Sat, 20 Jul
2019, Clank remarked:
You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month.
Some operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far
as I'm concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

The difference between 30-day contract, and pay as you go, is very
simple - with PAYG you pay in advance, with the contract you pay
in arrears. (For the calls at least, if not the standing charge
- although these days most calls are covered by the standing
charge anyway so it does become slightly harder to discern the
difference.)

That may have been truer in the past, but nowadays there are many what
I've called hybrid deals, which are PAYG but billed monthly in arrears.

There is no "contract" in the mobile phone sense.

To complicate things further, the first mobile contract I had was paid
monthly in advance for the "rental and bundle" with "out of bundle"
calls paid monthly in arrears. I have no reason to believe today's
contracts are different.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 11:06:30 on Sat, 20 Jul
2019, remarked:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:54:13 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:43:43 on Thu, 18 Jul
2019, remarked:
Ones where the credit rolls over and you don't have to make a regular
calls to keep them alive, aren't quite as common as you claim. The
networks hate them because they tend to get used in "glovebox" phones
were they have all the costs of maintaining the number and the billing
records, for virtually no revenue.

Oh come on, its costs them precisely £0.00 to maintain a number,
its simply

data in a database.

Ah, the marginal costs fallacy rears its ugly head.

The only cost involved in an unused number is the cost to the user when the
phone company disconnects the SIM. The rest of it costs nothing because the
infrastructure would be needed regardless and linking a phone number to a
SIM id is probably a few hundred bytes or less in a DB. You could store the
entire UK phone book and every cellphone IMEI number on a USB stick with room
to
spare never mind a fully fledged datacentre.

Let me know when you need a new spade, if that one wears out.

Ok Mr Telecoms Expert, exactly how much disk space does all the relevant
information about a single cellular phone number take up then? Obviously you
have the figures to hand so please share them.

I can't explain something like this when you have completely the wrong
architectural and business model as an underlying assumption.

They may well have, but any charges relating to the physical layer RF systems
will have nothing to do with how many subscribers the network has in its DB
unless they have so many they need to upgrade.

Ditto. Or are you an expert in the fees charged for outsourcing, now?

Unless the system is completely insane there should be no relation. Perhaps
you're going to tell us next that radio stations transmitter charges are
based on the number of listeners they have?

A Freeview-type transmitter might well charge based on the number of
stations you wish to transmit (eg CH4 and Ch4+1, costing more than just
Ch4).

Apart from that, your ability to fail to distinguish between
broadcasting and telecoms speaks volumes.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 20/07/2019 14:19, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
Now that *is* semantics. In all but name, it's a contract. Or equivalent to one, which amounts to the same thing.
As far as I'm concerned, PAYG is just that. Paying per month is not paying as you go, it's paying regularly, which is to me a contract.

Well, it might be to you, but it isn't to anyone else. Redefining
the meaning of words may make you think you're winning an
argument in your own head, but you really ain't.

If you are "paying as you go", in advance, and with no outstanding
commitment whatsoever should you choose to stop paying at any
time, then you do not have a contract. You just have a regular
spending habit.

As I said, semantics. I won't argue with you any more, you're entitled
to your view, but please allow me to have mine.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
Now that *is* semantics. In all but name, it's a contract. Or equivalent to one, which amounts to the same thing.
As far as I'm concerned, PAYG is just that. Paying per month is not paying as you go, it's paying regularly, which is to me a contract.

Well, it might be to you, but it isn't to anyone else. Redefining
the meaning of words may make you think you're winning an
argument in your own head, but you really ain't.

If you are "paying as you go", in advance, and with no outstanding
commitment whatsoever should you choose to stop paying at any
time, then you do not have a contract. You just have a regular
spending habit.

--

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

Roland Perry Wrote in message:
There is no "contract" in the mobile phone sense.

I admit it's a long time since I studied contract law, but I don't
remember "a mobile phone sense" being one of the criteria the law
uses to determine if a contract exists. They were all boring
things like offer, acceptance, intent to deal and other such
boring stuff.

A contract either is or it isn't. I have two SIMs in my phone
right now - one is PAYG, one is a contract. The latter is an
automatically renewing 30-day contract, but that doesn't make it
any less of a contract.

To complicate things further, the first mobile contract I had was paid monthly in advance for the "rental and bundle" with "out of bundle" calls paid monthly in arrears.

That is literally exactly what I said.

--

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 14:13:12 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:06:30 on Sat, 20 Jul
2019, remarked:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:54:13 +0100
Ok Mr Telecoms Expert, exactly how much disk space does all the relevant
information about a single cellular phone number take up then? Obviously you
have the figures to hand so please share them.

I can't explain something like this when you have completely the wrong
architectural and business model as an underlying assumption.

Go on, live dangerously, give it a go. How much data does it take up? Or are
you going to claim that telecoms companies use dilithium quantum computers
that store information in hyperspace rather than standard databases or hash
maps?

Unless the system is completely insane there should be no relation. Perhaps
you're going to tell us next that radio stations transmitter charges are
based on the number of listeners they have?

A Freeview-type transmitter might well charge based on the number of
stations you wish to transmit (eg CH4 and Ch4+1, costing more than just
Ch4).

Yes, congratulations - because each station takes up bandwidth. How much
bandwidth does an unused phone number use?

Apart from that, your ability to fail to distinguish between
broadcasting and telecoms speaks volumes.

Your refusal to acknowledge an obvious analogy speaks volumes that you've
been painted into a corner.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 08:04:34 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 06:48:46 on Sat, 20 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked:
No PAYG deals require monthly top-ups.

Yes they can.
para 15 in :-
https://www.o2.co.uk/termsandconditi...o-tariff-terms
and IIRC any other providers where you get more than just a simple
charge for each minute, megabyte or text on PAYG.

Para 15?

Take a wild stab at para 1.5 instead.

Yes, have a missing ".".

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 14:35:54 +0100, MissRiaElaine
wrote:

On 20/07/2019 14:19, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
Now that *is* semantics. In all but name, it's a contract. Or equivalent to one, which amounts to the same thing.
As far as I'm concerned, PAYG is just that. Paying per month is not paying as you go, it's paying regularly, which is to me a contract.

Well, it might be to you, but it isn't to anyone else. Redefining
the meaning of words may make you think you're winning an
argument in your own head, but you really ain't.

If you are "paying as you go", in advance, and with no outstanding
commitment whatsoever should you choose to stop paying at any
time, then you do not have a contract. You just have a regular
spending habit.

As I said, semantics. I won't argue with you any more, you're entitled
to your view, but please allow me to have mine.

Anything involving someone agreeing to supply goods or services in
return for you supplying some kind of consideration (usually money) is
a "contract". It is just easier for their lazy advertising/publicity
wonks to claim there is no contract rather than get into a more
involved description of a contract which tends to die at the end of
(usually) a month's service. At worst it leads to disputes where the
seller claims there is no contract when there still is.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month.
Some operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

The difference between 30-day contract, and pay as you go, is very
simple - with PAYG you pay in advance, with the contract you pay
in arrears. (For the calls at least, if not the standing charge
- although these days most calls are covered by the standing
charge anyway so it does become slightly harder to discern the
difference.)


Contract takes its monthly payment automatically until you tell them
otherwise, PAYG requires you to specifically make the payment, surely?
(I’ve never had a payg phone so I can’t be sure)


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 19:09:38 on Sat, 20 Jul
2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:
You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month.
Some operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

The difference between 30-day contract, and pay as you go, is very
simple - with PAYG you pay in advance, with the contract you pay
in arrears. (For the calls at least, if not the standing charge
- although these days most calls are covered by the standing
charge anyway so it does become slightly harder to discern the
difference.)

Contract takes its monthly payment automatically until you tell them
otherwise, PAYG requires you to specifically make the payment, surely?
(I’ve never had a payg phone so I can’t be sure)

Apart, of course, from auto-topup PAYG schemes. But I don't count those
as separate class of subscription, any more than an auto-topup Oyster is
a season ticket.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 20:25:14 on Sat, 20 Jul
2019, Clank remarked:
Roland Perry Wrote in message:

There is no "contract" in the mobile phone sense.

I admit it's a long time since I studied contract law, but I don't
remember "a mobile phone sense" being one of the criteria the law
uses to determine if a contract exists. They were all boring
things like offer, acceptance, intent to deal and other such
boring stuff.

A contract either is or it isn't. I have two SIMs in my phone
right now - one is PAYG, one is a contract. The latter is an
automatically renewing 30-day contract, but that doesn't make it
any less of a contract.

What we are actually trying to do is find non-confusing names for
post-pay PAYG subscriptions.

Even a pre-pay PAYG is a contract (in the legal sense) because you pay
them (say) £10 and they are contractually bound to provide you with
certain telecoms services (be that until the balance expires at the end
of the month, or until it's all used up, or whatever the T&C say)

To complicate things further, the first mobile contract I had was
paid monthly in advance for the "rental and bundle" with "out of
bundle" calls paid monthly in arrears.

That is literally exactly what I said.

You introduced yet another bit of non-standard terminology: "standing
charge".
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was
 

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 19:09:38 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month.
Some operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm
concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

The difference between 30-day contract, and pay as you go, is very
simple - with PAYG you pay in advance, with the contract you pay
in arrears. (For the calls at least, if not the standing charge
- although these days most calls are covered by the standing
charge anyway so it does become slightly harder to discern the
difference.)


Contract takes its monthly payment automatically until you tell them
otherwise, PAYG requires you to specifically make the payment, surely?
(I’ve never had a payg phone so I can’t be sure)

I think there's some confusion between a phone contract with a legal contract.
PAYG is not a phone contract but is a legal contract for the phone company to
provide you with a service while you still have money on account.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

Roland Perry Wrote in message:
A contract either is or it isn't. I have two SIMs in my phone
right now - one is PAYG, one is a contract. The latter is an
automatically renewing 30-day contract, but that doesn't make it
any less of a contract.
What we are actually trying to do is find non-confusing names for post-pay PAYG subscriptions.

But there already is an industry standard (since you love that so
much) name for them: "SIM Only Contract". Which typically come
in varieties such as "30 Day SIM-Only Contract", "12 Month
SIM-Only Contract", etc. (Albeit in this case there is little
value to the longer-than-30day variants.)

Even a pre-pay PAYG is a contract (in the legal sense) because you pay them (say) £10 and they are contractually
bound to provide you with certain telecoms services (be that until the balance expires at the end of the month,
or until it's all used up, or whatever the T&C say)

Actually, that's debatable. It may be that the contract of sale
is exhausted at the moment they credit your account... If the
credits you bought then weren't fit for purpose (because they
stopped accepting then for making calls) or if they just
disappeared with them, other consumer law may apply... But that's
a diversion.

That is literally exactly what I said.
You introduced yet another bit of non-standard terminology: "standing charge"

So non-standard you didn't understand what it meant?

(Actually I'm fairly sure that's what we called it 25 years ago
when I developed a telco's billing system - but if I'm honest
I've mostly tried to block that from my memory. Processing CDRs
to try and calculate whatever the latest impenetrable discount
scheme they've come up with can do bad things to a
man.)

--

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 15:27:02 on Sat, 20 Jul
2019, remarked:
Ok Mr Telecoms Expert, exactly how much disk space does all the relevant
information about a single cellular phone number take up then? Obviously you
have the figures to hand so please share them.

I can't explain something like this when you have completely the wrong
architectural and business model as an underlying assumption.

Go on, live dangerously, give it a go. How much data does it take up? Or are
you going to claim that telecoms companies use dilithium quantum computers
that store information in hyperspace rather than standard databases or hash
maps?

Unless the system is completely insane there should be no relation. Perhaps
you're going to tell us next that radio stations transmitter charges are
based on the number of listeners they have?

A Freeview-type transmitter might well charge based on the number of
stations you wish to transmit (eg CH4 and Ch4+1, costing more than just
Ch4).

Yes, congratulations - because each station takes up bandwidth. How much
bandwidth does an unused phone number use?

Apart from that, your ability to fail to distinguish between
broadcasting and telecoms speaks volumes.

Your refusal to acknowledge an obvious analogy speaks volumes that you've
been painted into a corner.

Let us know when you get to Australia.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

On Sun, 21 Jul 2019 13:51:14 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:27:02 on Sat, 20 Jul
2019, remarked:
Ok Mr Telecoms Expert, exactly how much disk space does all the relevant
information about a single cellular phone number take up then? Obviously you

have the figures to hand so please share them.

I can't explain something like this when you have completely the wrong
architectural and business model as an underlying assumption.

Go on, live dangerously, give it a go. How much data does it take up? Or are
you going to claim that telecoms companies use dilithium quantum computers
that store information in hyperspace rather than standard databases or hash
maps?

Unless the system is completely insane there should be no relation. Perhaps
you're going to tell us next that radio stations transmitter charges are
based on the number of listeners they have?

A Freeview-type transmitter might well charge based on the number of
stations you wish to transmit (eg CH4 and Ch4+1, costing more than just
Ch4).

Yes, congratulations - because each station takes up bandwidth. How much
bandwidth does an unused phone number use?

Apart from that, your ability to fail to distinguish between
broadcasting and telecoms speaks volumes.

Your refusal to acknowledge an obvious analogy speaks volumes that you've
been painted into a corner.

Let us know when you get to Australia.

I'll take that as a no, you can't back up anything you said. As I suspected.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 20/07/2019 12:06, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:54:13 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:43:43 on Thu, 18 Jul
2019, remarked:
Ones where the credit rolls over and you don't have to make a regular
calls to keep them alive, aren't quite as common as you claim. The
networks hate them because they tend to get used in "glovebox" phones
were they have all the costs of maintaining the number and the billing
records, for virtually no revenue.

Oh come on, its costs them precisely £0.00 to maintain a number, its simply

data in a database.

Ah, the marginal costs fallacy rears its ugly head.

The only cost involved in an unused number is the cost to the user when the
phone company disconnects the SIM. The rest of it costs nothing because the
infrastructure would be needed regardless and linking a phone number to a
SIM id is probably a few hundred bytes or less in a DB. You could store the
entire UK phone book and every cellphone IMEI number on a USB stick with room
to
spare never mind a fully fledged datacentre.

Let me know when you need a new spade, if that one wears out.

Ok Mr Telecoms Expert, exactly how much disk space does all the relevant
information about a single cellular phone number take up then? Obviously you
have the figures to hand so please share them.

Nah - whilst I do know the exact figure (or more to the point I could
look it up), it's getting more and more amusing to see you getting
irate when you seem to truly believe that the only cost is the disk
space - something that if it makes up 0.01% of the cost would surprise me.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering
 

On Sun, 21 Jul 2019 19:55:40 +0100
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 20/07/2019 12:06, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:54:13 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:43:43 on Thu, 18 Jul
2019, remarked:
Ones where the credit rolls over and you don't have to make a regular
calls to keep them alive, aren't quite as common as you claim. The
networks hate them because they tend to get used in "glovebox" phones
were they have all the costs of maintaining the number and the billing
records, for virtually no revenue.

Oh come on, its costs them precisely £0.00 to maintain a number, its
simply

data in a database.

Ah, the marginal costs fallacy rears its ugly head.

The only cost involved in an unused number is the cost to the user when the

phone company disconnects the SIM. The rest of it costs nothing because the

infrastructure would be needed regardless and linking a phone number to a
SIM id is probably a few hundred bytes or less in a DB. You could store the

entire UK phone book and every cellphone IMEI number on a USB stick with
room
to
spare never mind a fully fledged datacentre.

Let me know when you need a new spade, if that one wears out.

Ok Mr Telecoms Expert, exactly how much disk space does all the relevant
information about a single cellular phone number take up then? Obviously you
have the figures to hand so please share them.

Nah - whilst I do know the exact figure (or more to the point I could
look it up), it's getting more and more amusing to see you getting
irate when you seem to truly believe that the only cost is the disk
space - something that if it makes up 0.01% of the cost would surprise me.

If the number belongs to a real network not a virtual one, what are the
other costs then? Unless its used up its entire allocation of numbers it
won't be losing any money so tell me what I've missed. You and Perry are very
good at being supercilious, a bit less hot on supplying actual information.