Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

"vernon levy" wrote in message
...

"Paul Weaver" wrote in message
...
"Annabel Smyth" wrote in message
...
into our lane. We *had* to go slightly into the bus lane, as there
was
no other option left open - I wonder whether the reason will show if
the
cameras we saw were working, or whether we'll get £100 fine because we
were in the bus lane....

The bus forced its way onto your side of the road? It's the busses fault
then, I trust you took it's number an made a formal complaint.

Get a life! Re-read the original posting below and justify your above
interpretation.

As I understand it, the bus passed into an oncoming lane of traffic to get
arround a parked car. What it should have done was sat there and waited for
a gap in the oncoming traffic (or a kindly soul that let him through)

Unfortunately, on the other side of the
road, there is no bus lane, and a parked car diverted an oncoming bus
into our lane.

So the parked car (assuming it was illegally parked) was at fault. That
doesn't negate the illegal action of the bus driver, or the illegal action
of Annabel. The only exception would be if the bus pulled out infront of
Anabel before she had time to stop and she had to swerve to avoid collision.
In that case the bus driver is at fault for dangerous driving.

I think you should have a spell as a bus driver and experience the
stresses
and strains of trying to maintain a public service to a timetable in an

We all have stresses and strains in our jobs, we dont all break the law to
cope with those stresses and strains.

If it's justifable to break traffic laws because you have a timetable?
Perhaps we should legalise speeding for taxi drivers. And what about
commuters that are racing to work to provide a public service? If it's OK
for bus drivers to ignore traffic laws, it's ok for anyone. I dont care how
stressed they are, I'm sure the city broker trying to get to work is much
more stressed. It's part of the job.

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

"Allan" wrote in message
...
continued on his way. I later reported his behavior to the police (
after I had cooled down)

....and bugger all happened. After all bad publicity for Ken's little
darlings? (Assuming london)
--
Everything above is the personal opinion of the author, and nothing to do
with where he works and all that lovely disclaimery stuff.
Posted in his lunch hour too.

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

Frank X wrote:

Going round on the outside of a bus on some roads can be dangerous as they
can pull out without looking or signalling, forcing you into the path of
oncoming traffic.



You mean like the cyclist killed on Blackfriars Bridge in May
http://www.blagged.pwp.blueyonder.co...ackfriars.html

Tony

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

"Annabel Smyth" wrote in message
...

We *had* to go slightly into the bus lane, as there was
no other option left open - I wonder whether the reason
will show if the cameras we saw were working, or
whether we'll get £100 fine because we
were in the bus lane....

This is why bus lane cameras should only be fitted to the front of buses and
manually operated by the driver - because if your brief foray into a bus
lane doesn't hold a bus up, you shouldn't be penalised.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"Annabel Smyth" wrote in message
...

We *had* to go slightly into the bus lane, as there was
no other option left open - I wonder whether the reason
will show if the cameras we saw were working, or
whether we'll get £100 fine because we
were in the bus lane....

This is why bus lane cameras should only be fitted to the front of
buses and
manually operated by the driver - because if your brief foray into a
bus
lane doesn't hold a bus up, you shouldn't be penalised.

Like if you exceed the speed limit but don't kill anyone you shouldn't
be penalised either, I suppose...

Neil

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 22:48:05 on Wed, 1 Sep
2004, dwb remarked:

A bike lane marked by a solid white line, that motorised vehicles are
banned from entering. Unlike a one with dashed lines, where they can
if necessary to avoid another vehicle.

Um, the bus lanes that I see in London have solid white lines, so not sure
how that works :/

Quite well, because they are mandatory *bus* lanes. As well as the
signage, the width is a bit of a giveaway. You might have to travel a
bit out from central London to see a bike-only lane.

I think there's one up Tottenham Court Road; there's certainly a bike
lane, but i actually don't remember what sort. I'm positive some of the
route from Angel to Tottenham Court Road is mandatory cycle lane.

ObCyclistNearDeathExperienceStory: yesterday evening and this morning,
going over the Farringdon road. Last night, it was some guy who decided
he'd start by breaking the law about waiting behind the stop line at a red
light, thereby pulling up almost level with yours truly (er, who was also
breaking the law, but that's not important right now - there's a bike box
there, it just hasn't been painted on the road yet :) ), then thought it
would be fun to try to turn left through me (i was going straight on;
bikes can do that at that point, but cars can't, so perhaps he just wasn't
expecting it). This morning, it was a guy (in a Range Rover, in London,
and who should therefore die a painful death) who decided that it would be
fun to overtake me as i was turning right. Well, or run me over - hard to
tell, really.

I have to say i'm utterly apalled by all the "get over it" comments that
have been made. When people in motor vehicles break traffic laws, PEOPLE
DIE - usually other people, and in particular, people not in motor
vehicles. A car, or a bus or truck, is a lethal weapon - we shouldn't have
any tolerance whatsoever for its misuse.

Also, i can echo an observation made in the story about the psycho bus
driver chasing a cyclist down the road, too. A few months ago, i was hit
by a motorbike: he overtook a taxi, and didn't check to see if there was
anything in front of it; there was, and it was me. Luckily, it was all
pretty low-speed, so i just fell off and whacked my arm, rather than
getting properly hurt. Now, in the ensuing conversation, he rather
forcefully expressed the opinion that it was *my* fault, since there was a
cycle lane on the road which i wasn't using (it's a nice lane, but it's a
contraflow one, and rather hard to get into from the wrong side). He is of
course mistaken - there is no obligation on bikes to use a cycle lane, and
no restriction on them using the main lanes if they'd rather. The psycho
bus driver apparently had the same misapprehension; is this common?

tom

--
I gotta handful of vertebrae and a headful of mad! -- The Doomguy

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

In message , at 11:46:07 on Thu, 2
Sep 2004, Allan remarked:
This last Saturday I was stopped at light when a bus pulled up behind
me. When the lights change the bus driver pulled out and over took with
reasonable room, unfortunatly he then started to both pull in and brake
to stop at a bus stop ( he was pulling up short to the stop as there was
a bus already stopped at the stop )just as his rear wheel was level with
me. I had to brake hard too avoid being the filling in a kerb/bus
sandwich. As I passed the drivers window I pointed out what he had done
( surprisingly without expletives) then carried on my way.A little way
further on ( before the next bus stop ) I became aware that the bus was
not overtaking me, I looked round and saw the bus behind me and the
driver appeared to be indicating for me to pull over at the next stop.
He then passed me with the passenger door open and started shouting that
I "was an idiot and should not be on the road". He had to stop at the
next bus stop but shouted out of his window as I passed (could not make
that out). He over took me again, again with his door open shouting
something along the lines of " if your not on/a bus you should not be on
the road" and that " I should be on a cycle lane and not on the road" (
the fact that he had never noticed that there are total of 20yrds of
cycle lane on the 3 miles of this road is worrying)At this point all I
shouted back to him was I was reporting him and read out his bus ID
number . I then stopped and took down his license plate number as he
continued on his way. I later reported his behavior to the police (
after I had cooled down)

This is all classic stuff. Should be bottled and sent to traffic
planners everywhere.
--
Roland Perry

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

Neil Jones wrote:

This is why bus lane cameras should only be fitted to the front of
buses and manually operated by the driver - because if your brief
foray into a bus lane doesn't hold a bus up, you shouldn't be
penalised.

Like if you exceed the speed limit but don't kill anyone you shouldn't
be penalised either, I suppose...

Blimey, that's awfully close to common sense....

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

In message , at
16:58:31 on Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Tom Anderson
remarked:
there is no obligation on bikes to use a cycle lane, and
no restriction on them using the main lanes if they'd rather. The psycho
bus driver apparently had the same misapprehension; is this common?

Yes, most motorists believe this to be the case.
--
Roland Perry

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

"dwb" writes:

Neil Jones wrote:

This is why bus lane cameras should only be fitted to the front of
buses and manually operated by the driver - because if your brief
foray into a bus lane doesn't hold a bus up, you shouldn't be
penalised.

Like if you exceed the speed limit but don't kill anyone you shouldn't
be penalised either, I suppose...

Blimey, that's awfully close to common sense....

You know what we think about common sense round here.

The difference with bus lanes is that using one isn't so much of a
stochastic issue over whether you hold up a bus, whereas with breaking
speed limits, the amortised danger is quite high even if it's just 1
offence in many hundreds of thousands that actually ends in causing a
collision. (According to an ad I saw on a bus in Frome, each high
speed crash costs the local hospital £100 000, so the amortized cost
to the taxpayer of each speeding offence is non-negligible)

Of course you have to believe that speeding increases risk to accept
this argument, and I'm not going to try to persuade anyone of
that. Life's too short.

A

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
Also, i can echo an observation made in the story about the psycho bus
driver chasing a cyclist down the road, too. A few months ago, i was hit
by a motorbike: he overtook a taxi, and didn't check to see if there was
anything in front of it; there was, and it was me. Luckily, it was all
pretty low-speed, so i just fell off and whacked my arm, rather than
getting properly hurt. Now, in the ensuing conversation, he rather
forcefully expressed the opinion that it was *my* fault, since there was a
cycle lane on the road which i wasn't using (it's a nice lane, but it's a
contraflow one, and rather hard to get into from the wrong side). He is of
course mistaken - there is no obligation on bikes to use a cycle lane, and
no restriction on them using the main lanes if they'd rather. The psycho
bus driver apparently had the same misapprehension; is this common?

I'm trying to visualise the situation but I'm a bit confused: if the
cycle lane is contraflow but you were using the road, weren't you
travelling in the opposite direction to the cycle lane?

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

Tom Anderson said:

*snip*

Now, in the ensuing conversation, he rather
forcefully expressed the opinion that it was *my* fault, since there was a
cycle lane on the road which i wasn't using (it's a nice lane, but it's a
contraflow one, and rather hard to get into from the wrong side). He is of
course mistaken - there is no obligation on bikes to use a cycle lane, and
no restriction on them using the main lanes if they'd rather. The psycho
bus driver apparently had the same misapprehension; is this common?

Yep, I get lots of "get on the cycle path" comments here in Lincoln. I
favour the mild retort thought up by someone he "get on the motorway". If
the car driver is clever, it neatly highlights the stupidity of their point
of view (i.e. the cycle lane might not be going where you want to go)
without being too confrontational. If the driver is thick, it is likely they
will merely be puzzled rather than homicidal. Of course, what the impatient
motorcyclist meant was "how dare you be in the way, cyclist scum"! Sadly,
also a common reaction[1].

This morning I noted that Skool Traffic was back again. On my return from
the pool, two roundabouts on my route were totally clogged with twits who'd
entered without being able to get off, and some nitwit in a Rover decided to
try and murder me by entering against the circulating traffic. That
certainly woke me up!

Regards,

-david

[1] ObBusDriverStory. Two weeks ago on my way to the pool, 0650 in the
morning I am whizzing along the Tritton Road (urban dual carriageway, wide &
clear) towards town with nary another vehicle in sight. Mr Bus Driver drives
up behind me and rather than overtake in the completely clear lane to my
right, sits behind me sounding his horn. For the next mile. Through two sets
of lights, at both of which I pointed out there was a whole lane he could
literally get a bus through *right there*. He didn't actually overtake me
until the flyover over the Fossdyke Canal. Peculiar, if not actually
threatening behaviour.

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On 2 Sep 2004 16:31:10 GMT, David Nutter
wrote:

If the driver is thick,

Normal for Lincolnshire ............


This morning I noted that Skool Traffic was back again. On my return from
the pool, two roundabouts on my route were totally clogged with twits who'd
entered without being able to get off, and some nitwit in a Rover decided to
try and murder me by entering against the circulating traffic. That
certainly woke me up!

See line above ............

For Sale: Indicator lights, all model vehicles available, all
completely unused, apply; The Lincolnshire Motorist.

I have also noticed the driving / mobile phone ban has had a massive
impact up here ............... everyone is at it now !!! (See 1st
line)

;-)

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

Jack Ouzzi writes:

On 2 Sep 2004 16:31:10 GMT, David Nutter
wrote:

If the driver is thick,

Normal for Lincolnshire ............


This morning I noted that Skool Traffic was back again. On my return from
the pool, two roundabouts on my route were totally clogged with twits who'd
entered without being able to get off, and some nitwit in a Rover decided to
try and murder me by entering against the circulating traffic. That
certainly woke me up!

See line above ............

For Sale: Indicator lights, all model vehicles available, all
completely unused, apply; The Lincolnshire Motorist.

Ah yes, Flashing Yellow Lights Puzzle BMW Driver:

url:http://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/11/bmw.html

A

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

Also, i can echo an observation made in the story about the psycho bus
driver chasing a cyclist down the road, too. A few months ago, i was hit
by a motorbike: he overtook a taxi, and didn't check to see if there was
anything in front of it; there was, and it was me. Luckily, it was all
pretty low-speed, so i just fell off and whacked my arm, rather than
getting properly hurt. Now, in the ensuing conversation, he rather
forcefully expressed the opinion that it was *my* fault, since there was a
cycle lane on the road which i wasn't using (it's a nice lane, but it's a
contraflow one, and rather hard to get into from the wrong side). He is of
course mistaken - there is no obligation on bikes to use a cycle lane, and
no restriction on them using the main lanes if they'd rather. The psycho
bus driver apparently had the same misapprehension; is this common?

I'm trying to visualise the situation but I'm a bit confused: if the
cycle lane is contraflow but you were using the road, weren't you
travelling in the opposite direction to the cycle lane?

The cycle lane is bidirectional; sorry, i didn't explain that clearly.
This is the cycle lane along Tavistock Place, in case you know it; i was
heading west. The road looks like this:

---------------
---------------
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
===============

Where - denotes cycle lane, = denotes main lane, and X denotes a physical
barrier (a sort of free-standing kerb). I'd come in from the east, where
the road's bidirectional and there there's a normal cycle lane on each
side; thus, i was at the left edge of the road. The normal cycle lanes
end, and the bidirectional segregated lane begins, when the road becomes
one-way (where it crosses Woburn Place?), but it's a little tricky to get
into the segregated lane there, because it involves crossing the stream of
traffic, plus worrying about the traffic coming in from the north and
south. And i keep forgetting it's there. Anyway, i find it easier to stay
in the main lane, since my turn, off on the right to Gordon St further on,
has a filter lane.

Hmm. I might have got some of that wrong, since the road's bidirectional
where my turn is, which would mean the one-way stretch is only a couple of
hundred metres long. There's definitely a westbound main lane on the south
side the whole way, and an eastbound cycle lane on the north side the
whole way!

Anyway, if you want truly strange cycle lanes, try the back of the British
Museum: given the task of fitting a cycle lane heading west in with a
two-lane one-way street heading east (which, incidentally, is mostly used
by coaches), the road chaps decided that the best place for it was IN
BETWEEN the two lanes of traffic! Getting into that lane in the first
place is an adventure in itself.

tom

--
I don't know what the hell you should do. Try clicking on some **** or somethin'.

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:


Tom Anderson wrote:


Also, i can echo an observation made in the story about the psycho bus
driver chasing a cyclist down the road, too. A few months ago, i was hit
by a motorbike: he overtook a taxi, and didn't check to see if there was
anything in front of it; there was, and it was me. Luckily, it was all
pretty low-speed, so i just fell off and whacked my arm, rather than
getting properly hurt. Now, in the ensuing conversation, he rather
forcefully expressed the opinion that it was *my* fault, since there was a
cycle lane on the road which i wasn't using (it's a nice lane, but it's a
contraflow one, and rather hard to get into from the wrong side). He is of
course mistaken - there is no obligation on bikes to use a cycle lane, and
no restriction on them using the main lanes if they'd rather. The psycho
bus driver apparently had the same misapprehension; is this common?

I'm trying to visualise the situation but I'm a bit confused: if the
cycle lane is contraflow but you were using the road, weren't you
travelling in the opposite direction to the cycle lane?


The cycle lane is bidirectional; sorry, i didn't explain that clearly.
This is the cycle lane along Tavistock Place, in case you know it; i was
heading west. The road looks like this:

---------------
---------------
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
===============

Where - denotes cycle lane, = denotes main lane, and X denotes a physical
barrier (a sort of free-standing kerb). I'd come in from the east, where
the road's bidirectional and there there's a normal cycle lane on each
side; thus, i was at the left edge of the road. The normal cycle lanes
end, and the bidirectional segregated lane begins, when the road becomes
one-way (where it crosses Woburn Place?), but it's a little tricky to get
into the segregated lane there, because it involves crossing the stream of
traffic, plus worrying about the traffic coming in from the north and
south. And i keep forgetting it's there. Anyway, i find it easier to stay
in the main lane, since my turn, off on the right to Gordon St further on,
has a filter lane.

Oh yes, I've seen that lane before; I've never travelled down Tavistock
Place any other way than by foot though.

Hmm. I might have got some of that wrong, since the road's bidirectional
where my turn is, which would mean the one-way stretch is only a couple of
hundred metres long. There's definitely a westbound main lane on the south
side the whole way, and an eastbound cycle lane on the north side the
whole way!

Anyway, if you want truly strange cycle lanes, try the back of the British
Museum: given the task of fitting a cycle lane heading west in with a
two-lane one-way street heading east (which, incidentally, is mostly used
by coaches), the road chaps decided that the best place for it was IN
BETWEEN the two lanes of traffic! Getting into that lane in the first
place is an adventure in itself.

Isn't that how the Blackfriars Bridge accident happened? I don't fancy
cycling between two lanes of traffic; I get worried enough cycling in
London full stop, which is why I generally don't! I did, however,
experience a variety of cycling environments on a trip from South
Kensington to Canary Wharf and back.

I went via the parks, then Westminster Bridge, cycle route near the
South Bank, London Bridge, Aldgate (where I took a wrong turn and ended
up going round the one-way system, which scared the living daylights out
of me), then down to the Wapping ornamental canal, Shadwell, the
riverside, Narrow St and then took another wrong turn to end up walking
around West India Quay DLR with the bike and some difficulty.

Came back via a more direct route along Cable St (partly contraflow
cycle lane, partly on-pavement cycle lane), through the City to Fleet St
(got lost again around Fenchurch St & later was following motor vehicle
signs and almost ended up on the Victoria Embankment which I didn't want
to), then straight along to Trafalgar Square. I wasn't brave enough to
cycle across the Square; afterwards I went up The Mall, Constitution
Hill and back along the South Carriage Drive.

The experience was generally very good (although it was a Sunday!) and
would have encouraged me to cycle more in London. Unfortunately right
after finishing the ride, my bike got nicked, so that put me off again...

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

In message , Dave Arquati
writes

then straight along to Trafalgar Square. I wasn't brave enough to cycle
across the Square; afterwards I went up The Mall, Constitution Hill and
back along the South Carriage Drive.

I don't think the re-direction of traffic in Trafalgar Square is at all
beneficial to cyclists. I travel through it twice a day and there are
several points where motor vehicles and cyclists change lanes across
each other.

--
congokid
Good restaurants in London? Number one on Google
http://congokid.com

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:43:38 +0100, Paul Weaver wrote:

Good for them, if they insist of breaking the law while doing that then
they
should get a job where they cant endanger others.

But do bear in mind what I said in my last post. A lot of practises are
institutionalised. To give an example, most couriers get paid by the
number of drops they make. If any driver consistently took longer to make
a journey than the rest of his colleagues, he would in all likelihood lose
his job. Believe me, driving agressively would become second nature to you
if you were working under those conditions. You aren't thinking about it,
you're just doing it.

Also, you need to understand by doing what you want to do you are doing
all other cyclists a disservice. Do you really think that shouting at a
driver or trying to get him disciplined or even fired is going to make him
behave better towards other cyclists? Will it buggery.

What's the difference between a bus driver and a car driver, except a bus
driver should know better?

IME there is a world of difference between a 17 year old driver in a hot
hatch and a bus driver. Teenagers are famed for having a very unrealistic
view of their mortality (look at the number killed walking across roads).
Add to that an intoxicating sense of power that the car gives many new
drivers and the fact that an inexperienced driver will have less actual
driving ability than someone who has driven a bus (a vehicle 20 times the
size of a small car) 8 hours a day for the last 20 years, and I would
certainly say the two are different.

So I stick with what I said yesterday. In this case I personally think you
are in the right, but all the same let it go. It isn't doing anyone any
good.
--
|C|H|R|I|S|@|T|R|I|N|I|T|Y|W|I|L|L|S|.|C|O|M|
Remove the bars to contact me

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
...
The psycho
bus driver apparently had the same misapprehension; is this common?

Probably. But talking of madmen, bikes and misapprehensions I have heard of
someone who walked into a public library and requestied information on cycle
paths only to be directed to the "True Crime" section for books on
psychopaths!
--
gordon

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

Anyway, if you want truly strange cycle lanes, try the back of the British
Museum: given the task of fitting a cycle lane heading west in with a
two-lane one-way street heading east (which, incidentally, is mostly used
by coaches), the road chaps decided that the best place for it was IN
BETWEEN the two lanes of traffic! Getting into that lane in the first
place is an adventure in itself.

Isn't that how the Blackfriars Bridge accident happened?

It's nowhere near as bad as Blackfriars bridge, mostly because the
traffic's a hell of a lot lighter. Plus, ISTR that it's physically
segregated, which Blackfriars wasn't. Also, AIUI, the Blackfriars lane was
conflow (or whatever the opposite of contraflow is - Sandinistaflow?),
whereas this is contraflow, which is also safer.

I don't fancy cycling between two lanes of traffic; I get worried enough
cycling in London full stop, which is why I generally don't! I did,
however, experience a variety of cycling environments on a trip from
South Kensington to Canary Wharf and back.

I went via the parks, then Westminster Bridge, cycle route near the
South Bank, London Bridge, Aldgate (where I took a wrong turn and ended
up going round the one-way system, which scared the living daylights out
of me),

Do you mean the big gyratory system thing, which you have to go through to
get from the Whitechapel road to the City? I've been through that a few
times - it's not the best cycling environment, granted. Still, i'd say
it's better than the one at Old Street!

then down to the Wapping ornamental canal, Shadwell, the riverside,
Narrow St and then took another wrong turn to end up walking around West
India Quay DLR with the bike and some difficulty.

Came back via a more direct route along Cable St (partly contraflow
cycle lane, partly on-pavement cycle lane), through the City to Fleet St
(got lost again around Fenchurch St & later was following motor vehicle
signs and almost ended up on the Victoria Embankment which I didn't want
to),

Welcome to the club! I usually have a really hard time getting from the
City onto High Holborn, or in fact getting across the city in any
direction; i'm glad it's so small! I once, coming out of Smithfield and
aiming for work (UCL, Eustonish) ended up going down the Farringdon Road,
and by the time i realised, didn't really have any choice except to carry
on over Blackfriars Bridge (this was after the accident, i think), head
along the south bank and go back over Waterloo bridge, then up through the
west end to work. This was all because i'd agreed to go and pick something
up from Charterhouse Square for a friend; the same friend, in fact, who i
had to traverse Old Street and Aldgate to go and visit. She doesn't live
in London any more, which, frankly, is something of a relief!

then straight along to Trafalgar Square. I wasn't brave enough to
cycle across the Square; afterwards I went up The Mall, Constitution
Hill and back along the South Carriage Drive.

The experience was generally very good (although it was a Sunday!) and
would have encouraged me to cycle more in London. Unfortunately right
after finishing the ride, my bike got nicked, so that put me off
again...

That must have been rather irritating. Still, an old saying about falling
off horses springs to mind!

tom

--
Mathematics is the door and the key to the sciences. -- Roger Bacon

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

Wapping ornamental canal

!!!

Why do I imagine that the ornament would be a shopping trolley?

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 19:33:39 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

I'm trying to visualise the situation but I'm a bit confused: if the
cycle lane is contraflow but you were using the road, weren't you
travelling in the opposite direction to the cycle lane?

The cycle lane is bidirectional; sorry, i didn't explain that clearly.
This is the cycle lane along Tavistock Place, in case you know it; i was
heading west. The road looks like this:

---------------
---------------
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
===============

Where - denotes cycle lane, = denotes main lane, and X denotes a physical
barrier (a sort of free-standing kerb). I'd come in from the east, where
the road's bidirectional and there there's a normal cycle lane on each
side; thus, i was at the left edge of the road. The normal cycle lanes
end, and the bidirectional segregated lane begins, when the road becomes
one-way (where it crosses Woburn Place?), but it's a little tricky to get
into the segregated lane there, because it involves crossing the stream of
traffic, plus worrying about the traffic coming in from the north and
south. And i keep forgetting it's there. Anyway, i find it easier to stay
in the main lane, since my turn, off on the right to Gordon St further on,
has a filter lane.

Hmm. I might have got some of that wrong, since the road's bidirectional
where my turn is, which would mean the one-way stretch is only a couple of
hundred metres long. There's definitely a westbound main lane on the south
side the whole way, and an eastbound cycle lane on the north side the
whole way!

This cycle route is part of what started out as the Seven Stations
Link (http://www.greengas.u-net.com/SevenStns.html), and is now the
Stations Circular Route (London Cycle Network Route 0 -- yes, zero!).
It is very much work-in-progress.

(Note: in these comments, I have turned everything about 40 degrees
clockwise, to avoid saying, for example, south-eastish where I have
put south. To follow my ramblings, refer to
http://wwww.streetmap.co.uk, search for Tavistock Place (London
Street), select the WC1 item and (optionally) click on Large Map.)

To the west of Woburn Place (Gordon Square south side), there is the
bidirectional cycle lane mentioned, and to the east (Tavistock Place)
is the standard layout. However, Camden are about to start extending
the bidirectional lane along the north side of Tavistock Place, which
would mean losing the cycle lane on the south side (for road width
reasons).

The fun bit comes at the next crossroads to the east, at the junction
of Tavistock Place, Hunter Street and Judd Street, where the cycle
lane will go in a straight line (the road dog-legs here), ending on
the *south* side of Tavistock Place / Regent Square / Sidmouth Street.

Anyway, if you want truly strange cycle lanes, try the back of the British
Museum: given the task of fitting a cycle lane heading west in with a
two-lane one-way street heading east (which, incidentally, is mostly used
by coaches), the road chaps decided that the best place for it was IN
BETWEEN the two lanes of traffic! Getting into that lane in the first
place is an adventure in itself.

It's not too difficult, apart from the sharp curves involved. From
Russell Square, keep on the south side of the triangle at the junction
with Montague Street, bear right then turn left into Montague Place
(the road behind the British Museum). Putting the cycle lane in the
middle keeps you away from coach passengers to and from the British
Museum.

It is interesting to come down Malet Street to the west end of
Montague Place. The last 75 yards or so are one-way southbound (with a
contraflow cycle lane), and traffic for the coach stops and for Gower
Street must keep to the right-hand side of the road. The bollard on
the centre island (where the Montague Place cycle lane ends) still
bears a keep-left symbol. This means coach drivers, etc, regularly
break the law ...

Regards,

The Mad Cyclist

--
Clive R Robertson -- AS/400 Programmer.

Webmaster of http://www.osterleypark.org.uk/ -- this describes
a beautiful National Trust property in West London.

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 23:12:36 +0100 someone who may be Chris Davies
wrote this:-

A lot of practises are
institutionalised. To give an example, most couriers get paid by the
number of drops they make. If any driver consistently took longer to make
a journey than the rest of his colleagues, he would in all likelihood lose
his job.

Then they are taking part in a conspiracy with their employer to
break the law.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 15:02:17 +0100 someone who may be Tony Raven
wrote this:-

You mean like the cyclist killed on Blackfriars Bridge in May
http://www.blagged.pwp.blueyonder.co...ackfriars.html

The second photograph shows what looks like the most stupid idea
some road official has had in a long time.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

Tom Anderson writes:

big snip
conflow (or whatever the opposite of contraflow is - Sandinistaflow?),

Very good.

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Clive R Robertson wrote:

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 19:33:39 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

I'm trying to visualise the situation but I'm a bit confused: if the
cycle lane is contraflow but you were using the road, weren't you
travelling in the opposite direction to the cycle lane?

The cycle lane is bidirectional; sorry, i didn't explain that clearly.
This is the cycle lane along Tavistock Place, in case you know it; i was
heading west. The road looks like this:

---------------
---------------
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
===============

Oops. I paid a bit more attention last night, and you know what? There's
no one-way bit; it's bidirectional throughout. I don't know why i thought
otherwise - perhaps because there's never much traffic coming against me
in the mornings!

To the west of Woburn Place (Gordon Square south side), there is the
bidirectional cycle lane mentioned, and to the east (Tavistock Place) is
the standard layout. However, Camden are about to start extending the
bidirectional lane along the north side of Tavistock Place, which would
mean losing the cycle lane on the south side (for road width reasons).

This i don't mind - once you're on the bidirectional lane, it's okay (as
long as there isn't too much bike traffic coming against you), and it is
segregated, and (i think) benefits from bike lights at the pedestrian
crossings.

The fun bit comes at the next crossroads to the east, at the junction of
Tavistock Place, Hunter Street and Judd Street, where the cycle lane
will go in a straight line (the road dog-legs here), ending on the
*south* side of Tavistock Place / Regent Square / Sidmouth Street.

People will die there. I'm moving to Holloway in a couple of weeks - maybe
i can find a route which avoids it :-/.

Anyway, if you want truly strange cycle lanes, try the back of the British
Museum: given the task of fitting a cycle lane heading west in with a
two-lane one-way street heading east (which, incidentally, is mostly used
by coaches), the road chaps decided that the best place for it was IN
BETWEEN the two lanes of traffic! Getting into that lane in the first
place is an adventure in itself.

It's not too difficult, apart from the sharp curves involved. From
Russell Square, keep on the south side of the triangle at the junction
with Montague Street, bear right then turn left into Montague Place (the
road behind the British Museum). Putting the cycle lane in the middle
keeps you away from coach passengers to and from the British Museum.

Oops, sorry, i was thinking about coming from the east - where, IIRC, you
have to leave a contraflow lane along the easternmost end of Montague
Place and dive across the oncoming traffic to get into the lane.

It is interesting to come down Malet Street to the west end of Montague
Place. The last 75 yards or so are one-way southbound (with a contraflow
cycle lane), and traffic for the coach stops and for Gower Street must
keep to the right-hand side of the road. The bollard on the centre
island (where the Montague Place cycle lane ends) still bears a
keep-left symbol. This means coach drivers, etc, regularly break the law
...

Eek. Surely it would be simple just to cover it up? Hang on, there must be
some bin-bags around here ...

tom

--
When I see a man on a bicycle I have hope for the human race. -- H. G. Wells

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

Sounds like it was stopped in a mandatory bike lane. A very
common
offence.

Aren't bike lanes also frequently bus lanes?

Not in this case.

Was there somewhere else for the bus to be? Sounds like you had the
pavement - what did the bus have?

Actually, the bike didn't have the option of the pavement - if he had
cycled
on the pavement he would have been liable for a £30 fixed penalty for
cycling on the footway. Since the road in question is in a borough
that has
been targetting this offence
http://www.met.police.uk/hammersmithandfulham/crime_prevention.htm,
I don't see why the cyclist should be encouraged
to break the law because the bus driver (a 'professional' driver)
could not
be bothered to obey the law.


Matt Ashby

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On 3 Sep 2004, Ambrose Nankivell wrote:

Tom Anderson writes:

big snip
conflow (or whatever the opposite of contraflow is - Sandinistaflow?),

Very good.

Thank you. I'm so sharp i could cut myself.

tom

--
If it ain't Alberta, it ain't beef.

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

In article , John Rowland
wrote:
This is why bus lane cameras should only be fitted to the front
of buses and manually operated by the driver - because if your
brief foray into a bus lane doesn't hold a bus up, you shouldn't
be penalised.

I disagree. There are several places round here where you can come up
to a junction and want to turn left, but you have a bus lane to your
left as you approach. Cars who breach the bus lane make it harder at
best and dangerous at worst for those who follow the restriction.

There's also the consideration that where you have one or two lanes +
bus lane leading up to a flow limited junction those who are using
the bus lane are invariably doing so to queue jump. Thus their
pushing in may mean that those who are law abiding have to wait for
the next green light. Case for an ASBO!

In short I'd enforce bus lanes far more rigourously than minor speed
excesses, with the caveat that the signing on many of them needs
improving. Except that it would probably cost too much, I would mark
them with runway style lane lights which were on when the lane was in
operation.

--
Tony Bryer

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 08:41:55 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 23:12:36 +0100 someone who may be Chris Davies
wrote this:-

A lot of practises are
institutionalised. To give an example, most couriers get paid by the
number of drops they make. If any driver consistently took longer to
make
a journey than the rest of his colleagues, he would in all likelihood
lose
his job.

Then they are taking part in a conspiracy with their employer to
break the law.



Let's take this up another level. What do you think would happen to the
company that took longer and cost more for each drop? If it is a
conspiracy, we are all part of it, not just individual companies.

I bought a stereo off ebay last week, and paid £10 to the seller to have
it delivered from Watford to Reading. It was done the next day. How far is
that, 70 miles? Assuming the seller charged £2 for packing materials
(there were a lot in the package) that's £8. Assuming you have a courier
firm, after you've paid for a fleet of vans, diesel and wages how much
will be left over? And that's just an example off the top of my head. We
are always happy to pay less money, hence this "conspiracy" is kept going.

--
|C|H|R|I|S|@|T|R|I|N|I|T|Y|W|I|L|L|S|.|C|O|M|
Remove the bars to contact me

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:


Tom Anderson wrote:


On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:
(snip)
I don't fancy cycling between two lanes of traffic; I get worried enough
cycling in London full stop, which is why I generally don't! I did,
however, experience a variety of cycling environments on a trip from
South Kensington to Canary Wharf and back.

I went via the parks, then Westminster Bridge, cycle route near the
South Bank, London Bridge, Aldgate (where I took a wrong turn and ended
up going round the one-way system, which scared the living daylights out
of me),

Do you mean the big gyratory system thing, which you have to go through to
get from the Whitechapel road to the City? I've been through that a few
times - it's not the best cycling environment, granted. Still, i'd say
it's better than the one at Old Street!

I think that's the one. The route advised to cyclists is (from
Leadenhall St) via Jewry St & Vine St to Crosswall, then eastbound via
Goodmans Yard or westbound via Portsoken St, using toucan crossings at
the subsequent Prescot St junction to reach an on-pavement cycle path
which takes you into Royal Mint St (which was a pleasant route to Canary
Wharf from a traffic point of view).

Unfortunately I didn't approach from the right direction, and since I
had never cycled there before, and ended up on the gyratory, which
seemed to have about six lanes of fast traffic going left where I wanted
to go right! In the end I managed to get to the pavement and walked my
bike round the rest. I joined the "official" route at Goodmans Yard.

then down to the Wapping ornamental canal, Shadwell, the riverside,
Narrow St and then took another wrong turn to end up walking around West
India Quay DLR with the bike and some difficulty.

Came back via a more direct route along Cable St (partly contraflow
cycle lane, partly on-pavement cycle lane), through the City to Fleet St
(got lost again around Fenchurch St & later was following motor vehicle
signs and almost ended up on the Victoria Embankment which I didn't want
to),


Welcome to the club! I usually have a really hard time getting from the
City onto High Holborn, or in fact getting across the city in any
direction; i'm glad it's so small! I once, coming out of Smithfield and
aiming for work (UCL, Eustonish) ended up going down the Farringdon Road,
and by the time i realised, didn't really have any choice except to carry
on over Blackfriars Bridge (this was after the accident, i think), head
along the south bank and go back over Waterloo bridge, then up through the
west end to work. This was all because i'd agreed to go and pick something
up from Charterhouse Square for a friend; the same friend, in fact, who i
had to traverse Old Street and Aldgate to go and visit. She doesn't live
in London any more, which, frankly, is something of a relief!


then straight along to Trafalgar Square. I wasn't brave enough to
cycle across the Square; afterwards I went up The Mall, Constitution
Hill and back along the South Carriage Drive.

The experience was generally very good (although it was a Sunday!) and
would have encouraged me to cycle more in London. Unfortunately right
after finishing the ride, my bike got nicked, so that put me off
again...


That must have been rather irritating. Still, an old saying about falling
off horses springs to mind!

I try hard enough not to fall off my bike, let alone worrying about
falling off horses!


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

John Rowland wrote:

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

Wapping ornamental canal


!!!

Why do I imagine that the ornament would be a shopping trolley?


It wasn't too bad! There was a rather fun bit getting onto the canal in
the first place off Vaughan St; a fairly long series of zig-zagging
cycle ramps with very tight turns (to avoid a bumpy ride down the
steps). The canal is a fairly fast route from there to the Shadwell
Basin and thence to Narrow St in Limehouse. The more direct route via
Cable St is faster but involves a horrible crossing of the Rotherhithe
Tunnel approach road; the (heavy) traffic seemed to move relatively
slowly but not slowly enough for someone to let you across.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 00:31:57 +0100, Chris Davies
wrote:

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:34:15 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 19:25:27 on Wed, 1 Sep
2004, dwb remarked:
I'm a bit confused, what exactly was the bus doing wrong?

Sounds like it was stopped in a mandatory bike lane. A very common
offence.

Something similar happened to me this morning on my way to work.
A fella in a van was dropping what looked like his wife off. He pulled
into the bike(only) lane, then opened his drivers door as I rode past. I
swerved out, narrowly missing his door. Didn't say anything to him, just
went to work. Really, what good would it have done, other than making me
momentarily feel better? It wouldn't have given him a nice image of
cyclists, which ultimately is what we all want.

And another almost related....

I was walking into town yesterday. The pavement has a magic white
line down the middle of it and bicycle symbols on the outer half. The
road has double yellow lines.

So, 7.5T white van knowing it is BAD to park where forbidden (eg
double yellow lines) pulls onto the cycle lane portion of the
pavement, square on, all four wheels. I mean there's no sign to say he
can't so he must be allowed surely. He then gets out of cab, and opens
the near side side door so he can access the pile of mouldering tat he
has to deliver. The open door is _exactly_ the width of the remaining
pavement, blocking it completely. What am I to do? Walking in the A23
didn't appeal, so I walked on the pavement, moving the door to clear
my way. An extra nudge and it closed. I do hope he had a handle on
the inside otherwise he'll be there still.



Tim

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Chris Davies wrote:

On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 08:41:55 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 23:12:36 +0100 someone who may be Chris Davies
wrote this:-

A lot of practises are institutionalised. To give an example, most
couriers get paid by the number of drops they make. If any driver
consistently took longer to make a journey than the rest of his
colleagues, he would in all likelihood lose his job.

Then they are taking part in a conspiracy with their employer to break
the law.

Let's take this up another level. What do you think would happen to the
company that took longer and cost more for each drop? If it is a
conspiracy, we are all part of it, not just individual companies.

No. We're not given a choice - we have no way of knowing if a delivery
company had law-abiding drivers or not, so we never have the chance to pay
more for safety.

What this is really about is that the costs of breaking the law aren't
internalised; the drivers' illegal actions cost time, money and lives, but
the costs are borne by other road users, the state, and cyclists and
pedestrians. If the costs could be transferred to the delivery companies,
then it would be in their economic interests to have good drivers. This is
well nigh impossible to do perfectly, but covering the country in smart
CCTV with automatic fines for any traffic offence would be a start.

tom

--
Crazy week so far, which at one point involved spewing down the inside of my jeans! -- D

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

Tom Anderson wrote:

What this is really about is that the costs of breaking the law aren't
internalised; the drivers' illegal actions cost time, money and
lives, but the costs are borne by other road users, the state, and
cyclists and pedestrians. If the costs could be transferred to the
delivery companies, then it would be in their economic interests to
have good drivers. This is well nigh impossible to do perfectly, but
covering the country in smart CCTV with automatic fines for any
traffic offence would be a start.

....and who pays for the 'smart CCTV' system? Answer; road users, the state,
and cyclists and pedestrians.

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

Tim Hall wrote:

So, 7.5T white van knowing it is BAD to park where forbidden (eg
double yellow lines) pulls onto the cycle lane portion of the
pavement, square on, all four wheels. I mean there's no sign to say
he can't so he must be allowed surely.

Not necessarily. In Greater london it's banned under the Greater London
Council (General Powers) Act 1974 unless there are signs to say that
pavement parkling is allowed. I believe it's also illegal where, as in
this case, there is a yellow line prohibiting waiting on the
carriageway.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:44:29 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:


No. We're not given a choice - we have no way of knowing if a delivery
company had law-abiding drivers or not, so we never have the chance to
pay
more for safety.

What this is really about is that the costs of breaking the law aren't
internalised; the drivers' illegal actions cost time, money and lives,
but
the costs are borne by other road users, the state, and cyclists and
pedestrians. If the costs could be transferred to the delivery companies,
then it would be in their economic interests to have good drivers. This
is
well nigh impossible to do perfectly, but covering the country in smart
CCTV with automatic fines for any traffic offence would be a start.

tom

You said "well nigh impossible to do perfectly" yourself, Tom. I would
love to see measures like this come into place, but I know it will not
happen.

--
|C|H|R|I|S|@|T|R|I|N|I|T|Y|W|I|L|L|S|.|C|O|M|
Remove the bars to contact me

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Stimpy wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

What this is really about is that the costs of breaking the law aren't
internalised; the drivers' illegal actions cost time, money and lives,
but the costs are borne by other road users, the state, and cyclists
and pedestrians. If the costs could be transferred to the delivery
companies, then it would be in their economic interests to have good
drivers. This is well nigh impossible to do perfectly, but covering
the country in smart CCTV with automatic fines for any traffic offence
would be a start.

...and who pays for the 'smart CCTV' system? Answer; road users, the state,
and cyclists and pedestrians.

Ah, well, yes, ahem, details, my good man, details.

I don't know how expensive it would be to do, i admit. It will get cheaper
over time, though (information technology is good like that). Also, it
would be raising revenue through fines, so it might be able to pay for
itself after a while.

Incidentally, if we did have something like this, i'd like to see cyclists
display registration plates too, and be policed to the same strictness as
motor vehicles (although i'd hope that the rules they were held too
would be more relaxed where appropriate).

tom

--
GOLDIE LOOKIN' CHAIN [...] will ultimately make all other forms of music both redundant and unnecessary -- ntk

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

"Paul Weaver" wrote in message
...
IT WAS A CYCLE LANE, NOT A BUS LANE

No need to waste effort shouting. We've already established that some people
can't understand the difference, even though one has a pictogram of a cycle
painted in it and the other has "BUS LANE" painted in large white letters.

Bus driver complaint and OYBike
 

"Danny Colyer" wrote in message
...
Anyway, if a professional driver

Regrettably, IME "professional" and "bus driver" quite often don't go
together.