Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005, asdf wrote:

Plus has Sudbury Hill Harrow looks like it loses it's 'limited service'
station symbol simply because it's incompatible with the 'interchange
station' symbol.

Odd. This happens at some stations (Wimbledon) but not others
(Stratford)...

Odd indeed.

snip

Really, they need a visual code in which these properties are shown by
orthogonal, composable features: if interchangeness was just blackness,
that would work. It would look horrible, though.

Also, they show normal stations on tube and rail lines differently, which
is bad.

tom

A thorough analysis! The link below takes you to a now well out-of-date
site on the lack of consistancy on the Tube map, of which most of the
issues have now been addressesed. It does show that 'great minds' have
visited the issue of rail map (or more accurately diagram) consistancy
beforehand.

However I think it's OK that stations on the Tube are shown differently
to railway stations - it's an added visual clue (alongside the thinness
of the Tube lines) that they're part of the Underground.

During the 1990's, the London Connections map used to use the
monochrome (black & white) 'colours' for each Tube line, reserving the
real colour for the overground lines. There was a logic in keeping the
profusion of colour under control, but it ended up a really ugly map.
The newer all-colour London Connections is, IMO, a better solution to a
difficult design brief.

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
asdf wrote:

- New limited Southern service via Bookham

Does that go to Guildford? There were a few peak hour trains in the old
days - I think a hangover sop from the withdrawal of Thameslink.

There is still a peak-hour Southern service to Guildford these days. Was
still seeing slam-door stock, at least as recently as last Thursday,
according to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southernrailway/
--
David Biddulph

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

What's the limited service operated by Southern around
the Thameslink Wimbledon loop? That seems to be new.

It was running when I lived in Sutton 7 years ago.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

The only 1tph stations I can think of in Greater London
are Sudbury Hill Harrow, Chelsfield, Knockholt, and
Belmont (IIRC Banstead and Epsom Downs are outside
Greater London). The only peak hours only stations, IIRC,
are Sudbury and Harrow Road, the Natiuonal Rail platforms
at Barbican and Moorgate (Thameslink), and Shoreditch (LUL).
Is anyone aware of any I have omitted?

Does Angel Road still have a bad service?

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

"John Rowland" wrote

Does Angel Road still have a bad service?

You're right - Angel Road and Northumberland Park each only have 1 tph. The
other Northumberland Park station (LUL Victoria Line) has a better service,
but it's for staff only, and inside the Victoria Line depot. ISTR a proposal
for redevelopment of the area, which would have involved the LUL station
becoming a public station.

Peter

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005, Mizter T wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005, asdf wrote:

Plus has Sudbury Hill Harrow looks like it loses it's 'limited
service' station symbol simply because it's incompatible with the
'interchange station' symbol.

Odd. This happens at some stations (Wimbledon) but not others
(Stratford)...

Odd indeed.

snip

Really, they need a visual code in which these properties are shown by
orthogonal, composable features: if interchangeness was just blackness,
that would work. It would look horrible, though.

Also, they show normal stations on tube and rail lines differently, which
is bad.

A thorough analysis! The link below takes you to a now well out-of-date
site on the lack of consistancy on the Tube map, of which most of the
issues have now been addressesed. It does show that 'great minds' have
visited the issue of rail map (or more accurately diagram) consistancy
beforehand.

You forgot to include the link, i think, so here it is:

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~ursa/p...ains/inter.htm

Is that the one you were thinking of?

However I think it's OK that stations on the Tube are shown differently
to railway stations - it's an added visual clue (alongside the thinness
of the Tube lines) that they're part of the Underground.

That's one way of looking at it. My approach to a map like this would to
be try to erase superfluous distinctions; since i don't think the
difference between NR and LU lines is important per se (i think the
difference in service level is, but not the operator!), i wouldn't try to
display it. But then, i'm not the Association of Train Operating
Companies.

Ironically, it seems the ATOC symbol for NR stations is the one originally
used on tube maps:

http://www.ursasoft.com/maps/LURS/extra/london-1909.gif

Also, that the interchange symbol started life as a hollow coloured
circle, as i suggest:

http://www.ursasoft.com/maps/LURS/big/london-1921.gif

It wasn't until Hutchison, in 1960, that interchanges went black:

http://www.ursasoft.com/maps/LURS/big/london-1961a.gif

This is sensible, though, since it deals with the conundrum of which line
interchange stations should take their colour from. That said, i really
like Beck's pre-1960 maps, where interchanges consist of one circle on
each line (in the line's colour).

Mad props to this excellent website on the history of interchange
symbology:

http://www.ursasoft.com/maps/LURS/

tom

--
Programming is a skill best acquired by practice and example rather than from books -- Alan Turing

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005, Peter Masson wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

Fair point. 1TPH, whilst a bit sparse, still counts as a 'full' station
rather than a 'limited service' station. 'Limited service' stations
seem to be those only serverd by peak trains.

The only 1tph stations I can think of in Greater London are Sudbury Hill
Harrow, Chelsfield, Knockholt, and Belmont (IIRC Banstead and Epsom
Downs are outside Greater London). The only peak hours only stations,
IIRC, are Sudbury and Harrow Road, the Natiuonal Rail platforms at
Barbican and Moorgate (Thameslink), and Shoreditch (LUL). Is anyone
aware of any I have omitted?

The Great Northern Electrics, or Northern City Line, or whatever you want
to call it, that runs from Finsbury Park to Moorgate, isn't exactly
off-peak friendly: it only runs until ten during the week, and not at all
at weekends. The W&C doesn't run on Sundays. Still, both of these do run
during the midday off-peak.

Hey, if we're counting not running at the weekend as being peak-only, how
about the entire south side of the Circle?

tom

--
Programming is a skill best acquired by practice and example rather than from books -- Alan Turing

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:22:00 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

It wasn't until Hutchison, in 1960, that interchanges went black:

About the only good feature of that abomination.

This is sensible, though, since it deals with the conundrum of which line
interchange stations should take their colour from. That said, i really
like Beck's pre-1960 maps, where interchanges consist of one circle on
each line (in the line's colour).

I think that in some locations (Charing Cross/Embankment springs to
mind) it looks absurdly crowded.

Mad props to this excellent website on the history of interchange
symbology:

http://www.ursasoft.com/maps/LURS/

A lovely diversion for twenty minutes or so. I actually really like
the dot-in-circle for mainline interchanges.

In article
lid "asdf" writes:

Matthew Dickinson wrote:
There's a new London Connections map out with Heathrow Connect
depicted as a seperate service between Ealing Broadway & Heathrow
Terminals 1,2 & 3.

snip
Other changes I've noticed:

- New limited SET service between Elephant & Castle and Herne Hill
- No more Thameslink blockade
- Kilburn High Road is (at last) shown as being temporarily closed

Still closed ? Is Kilburn High Road the new Kentish Town West ?
snip
--
_______
+---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //|
| Charles Ellson: | | \\ // |
+---------------------------------------------------+ | |
| // \\ |
Alba gu brath |//___\\|

John Rowland wrote:
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

What's the limited service operated by Southern around
the Thameslink Wimbledon loop? That seems to be new.

It was running when I lived in Sutton 7 years ago.

It's been running the present way for at least ten years I think.
Thameslink runs the Wimbledon loop in both directions off peak, but in
the peaks they only run it in one direction while Southern runs it in
the other direction (ie clockwise v anticlockwise).

I can never remember which runs which, but I know it reverses, ie
whichever operator runs it clockwise in the morning runs it
anticlockwise in the evening.

Immediately before this arrangement, South Central, or whatever it was,
ran the Wimbledon loop all the time, in a broken figure of eight. That
is, London Bridge, Peckham, Streatham, Wimbledon, Sutton, Selhurst,
Streatham Common, Victoria (and the reverse).

I think Thameslink was just running down to West Croydon at that time.