Martin Underwood wrote:
wrote in
:

Mal wrote:
So....someone stole something from you worth a lot of money and you
blame someone else?? Its your ticket, its worth a fortune, look
after it. However there is a procedure for issuing a new one which
staff should do.

Mal

I blame LUL because they failed to manage the chaos that was created
because at least one gate was out of action. I am required to put my
ticket in the gate to be scanned , from that point on it is out of my
control. To be fair if the daft woman in front of me hadn't actually
stepped back out of the gate to allow a pushy f**king girl to barge he
way through (she was probabley travelling without a ticket) then I
would have been in a position to stop somebody swiping my ticket out
of the machine. The woman in front of me probabley picked up my
ticket so I hopethat she had an annual first class ticket taken. It
would make her think twice before allowing somebody to push in front.
Why is LUL's inability to manage a situation my fault.
After initially doing nothing and sending me on my way and Silverlink
saying they needed something from LUL before allowing me to proceed, I
returned to the LU station and created merry hell. The station manager
did then give me a replacement travel card but I did need to raise
merry hell to get it.

When I'm going up to London, I always pay by credit card and keep the
receipt separate from the ticket so I have independent proof that I bought
the ticket and of its ticket number. So far I've never lost or had stolen a
ticket, but there's always a first time...

I have also perfected the rapid movement of my hand from the entry slot to
the exit slot so my hand arrives there *before* the ticket it returned,
lessening the chances of someone taking it from me except by extreme force.

It's a shame that the LUL barriers take the ticket away and then return it
to you. If you swiped your own ticket, it would never leave your hand. I
presume swiping was considerd but found to be too unreliable. It also
doesn't allow a ticket to be retained if it is no longer valid because
you've finished your journey.
I am usually pretty careful once I insert my ticket into the gate .
While I am in possession of my ticket I can be responsible for it. Whan
I am not in possesssion of my ticket ie when it is in the gate it is
LUL's responsibility. That is why I hold them liable in this instance
for not managing the overcrowding. They did seem to indicate that this
is a fairly common occurance although in 15 years I have never come
anywhere close to this before.

Kevin

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 07:50:35 -0000, (Mark Brader) wrote:

I would have thought it more efficient to have fare charged on entry,
let people out the other end and save rather a lot of money on staff.

Of course it is -- but that requires a flat fare, which is considered
unacceptable.

Interestingly, after the fares change in January, fares will *almost*
be flat...

"T.S. Cordiner" writes:

Having moved to New York this summer, I am interested that despite being
a daily commuter I've not spoken to one member of MTA staff and apart
from a few ticket clerks (with big signs listing the tickets one has to
buy from the machine--which is pretty much all of them!) in their
cubicles, the subway seems to run fine without all the gate line staff
milling around. Indeed, as a fairly regular tourist to New York I had
the view that the tube was a much better, safer, cleaner, more efficient
mode than the NYC subway, but I have to say my 25 minute daily commute
on the 1 line from the Village to the UWS is a pleasure and we seem to
manage fine without any gate line staff (next train departure boards
would be nice though.)

As an almost lifelong New Yorker who happened to visit London this
summer, I find it interesting to read this perspective.

Until 1994, the mode of payment for the subway was the token, which
could only be purchased from a Station Agent (S/A). (Well, nearly
only. A few stations had token machines, but the vast majority
didn't.) Most station entrances had S/A's. To prevent fare beating,
the entrances that did not were equipped with so-called iron maidens
(see http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?8303 ), whose token slots were
invariably stuffed -- intending passengers would lose their tokens and
vandals would come out of hiding to suck the tokens out of the jammed
slot.

In 1994, the plastic MetroCard was introduced, although it wasn't
accepted at all stations until 1997. In 1997, bulk discounts,
unlimited cards, and free subway-bus transfers were finally
introduced, but tokens were still available for those who preferred
them. The old iron maidens began to be replaced with modern
MetroCard-only High Entry-Exit Turnstiles (HEET's), nearly as
cumbersome but resistant to sucker vandalism. In addition to being
sold at booths, prepackaged MetroCards were sold at vendors outside
the system. One variety of MetroCard, the one-day unlimited Fun Pass,
was never available at the booths; at the time, one had to purchase it
from an outside vendor.

In 1999(?), the MetroCard Vending Machine was born, and over the next
several years, MVM's were installed systemwide. For the first time
ever, credit card payments were accepted for MetroCards. And Fun
Passes were sold out of the machines in the stations, although still
not from booths. Another sort of card only sold by the machines was
the paper SingleRide, valid for one ride within two hours of purchase
with no free bus-subway transfer (i.e., the exact same terms as a
single token, except that a token didn't expire after two hours). You
see, the minimum balance sold on a new plastic MetroCard has always
been the equivalent of two fares ($3 at the time), so this was
the MetroCard equivalent of a single token.

With MetroCard share having grown to nearly 100%, the MTA was in a
position to finally phase out the token. With the 2003 fare increase,
the token was officially abandoned (although tokens already in
circulation were still accepted on buses, with additional cash payment
for the fare differential, until the end of the year). Passengers
wishing to pay for only one fare were directed to the machines for
SingleRides, since a new MetroCard still had a two-ride (now up to $4)
minimum. At the same time, a loss insurance program was instituted
for 30-day unlimited cards, but only if they were purchased by credit
card at a machine.

Station Agents were now essentially obsolete. There were no fare
options sold only by the S/A's, and there were several sold only by
machine, and in fact most passengers purchased their MetroCards from
the machines. While S/A's were now primarily in a customer service
position, they were still locked in booths outside fare control (and,
in my experience, were more often than not either unable or unwilling
to assist). The MTA wanted to close many booths, replacing the
turnstiles with HEET's, in many cases turning part-time entrances into
full-time entrances in the process. At least one full-time attended
entrance would remain at each station. But there was an outcry (in my
opinion, mostly misguided). Obviously, the union was opposed. But a
lot of passengers seemed to think the subway system would suddenly
become grossly unsafe if fewer of its entrances were manned -- never
mind that many of the subway platforms, where people actually stand
and wait for the train, have always been completely out of sight of
any booth, except perhaps by surveillance camera (which, of course,
could be monitored at a central office in Brooklyn just as easily as
in the station booth). The only IMO valid objection, which I didn't
hear often, was that at many stations with separate fare control for
each direction (very common at local stations, especially on the older
IRT and BMT), there would be no way to get onto or off of the platform
in one direction except through the HEET's, which can't accommodate
bulky objects. (One of the stations on the list was the station at
125th Street and Lenox Avenue on the 2/3, where northbound access
would have been only via HEET. That's an official transfer point to
the M60 bus to LaGuardia Airport. Presumably some people might need
to exit the station with luggage!) Some of the planned closures were
instituted, but most were dropped over public objection.

With the fare increase of 2004, the MTA floated a similar list of
closures. Public pressure again stood in the way of implementation.
Instead of removing S/A's, the MTA decided to convert many S/A's into
SCA's (Station Customer Agents). Over time, many booths are being
painted a pretty shade of burgundy and the agents (now dressed in
burgundy) are being moved outside. They can still step into the booth
if necessary, but they do not handle cash or make MetroCard
transactions. Standard-height turnstiles remain. Although this isn't
saving the MTA any labor costs, it is, I think, improving customer
service. At least one standard booth will remain at each station for
the foreseeable future.

One question that remains is what will happen to part-time entrances.
The closest station entrance to my home, at 87th Street and Broadway,
is only open rush hours, when an S/A is on duty. At other times I
have to walk an extra block on the street to the full-time entrance,
even though I have no use for the S/A. (In fact, several years ago I
got into frequent arguments with the S/A there about the exact opening
time of that entrance. The sign said 6:30, but after several
arguments it came to light that the S/A's schedule said 6:35, and I
needed to catch a train that arrived between those times.) I would be
thrilled if that booth were closed and the entrance were opened
full-time. According to an S/A who generally knows what he's talking
about, the booth is scheduled to be painted burgundy at some point
next year, at which point an SCA will be on-duty around the clock(!).

So, for the time being, the Station Agent is here to stay in one form
or another -- there are enough vocal New Yorkers who insist on it.

As Mark points out, since the subway system has a flat fare, the
turnstiles are never locked for exiting passengers except when the
entire exit is closed. Except for passengers with bulky objects that
can't fit through the turnstiles, there is no need for assistance in
exiting. (Entering can be a different story, especially if the
MetroCard readers aren't cleaned often enough.)

The PATH system to New Jersey also has a flat fare and also uses
standard-height turnstiles, but stations are unmanned. I once had to
use the customer service telephone (the turnstile swallowed my card
but forgot to unlock the gate), and I was instructed to use the
wheelchair access gate. But for some reason, the MTA refuses to use
standard-height turnstiles at unattended stations. With standard
turnstiles, I think a lot of the objection to booth closings would
quickly disappear.

I also rely on the 1 train, as you can tell from my home station. The
1 used to be terribly unreliable, but it improved substantially in
2002. It's still somewhat unreliable due to inevitable overcrowding,
but at 20 tph in the AM rush, it's usually manageable if the trains
don't get bunched up. Enjoy the good service while it lasts; the
trackage at the new South Ferry terminal (under construction) is
remarkably similar to the trackage at the upper level of Jamaica
Center, which can only handle 12 tph (and since the E runs up to 15
tph, some rush hour trains are diverted to the 179th Street terminal
otherwise served only by the F). Can you say 40% service cut? (And
weekend headways are quite inadequate. They were increased from 5
minutes to 6 minutes a few years ago, and the change was immediately
apparent.)

As for the London system, I was quite impressed overall, despite half
of my station (Notting Hill Gate) having been closed for my entire
stay. Service seems to be quite a bit more frequent than here in New
York (except overnight, of course). And I managed to thoroughly
confuse my Oyster Card at one point (it had an unresolved journey
followed by a trip with no entry point even though the two should have
been linked together), but aside from that, it was quite convenient.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY

On 24 Nov 2005 02:52:35 -0800, wrote:


Martin Underwood wrote:
wrote in
:

Mal wrote:
So....someone stole something from you worth a lot of money and you
blame someone else?? Its your ticket, its worth a fortune, look
after it. However there is a procedure for issuing a new one which
staff should do.

Mal

I blame LUL because they failed to manage the chaos that was created
because at least one gate was out of action. I am required to put my
ticket in the gate to be scanned , from that point on it is out of my
control. To be fair if the daft woman in front of me hadn't actually
stepped back out of the gate to allow a pushy f**king girl to barge he
way through (she was probabley travelling without a ticket) then I
would have been in a position to stop somebody swiping my ticket out
of the machine. The woman in front of me probabley picked up my
ticket so I hopethat she had an annual first class ticket taken. It
would make her think twice before allowing somebody to push in front.
Why is LUL's inability to manage a situation my fault.
After initially doing nothing and sending me on my way and Silverlink
saying they needed something from LUL before allowing me to proceed, I
returned to the LU station and created merry hell. The station manager
did then give me a replacement travel card but I did need to raise
merry hell to get it.

When I'm going up to London, I always pay by credit card and keep the
receipt separate from the ticket so I have independent proof that I bought
the ticket and of its ticket number. So far I've never lost or had stolen a
ticket, but there's always a first time...

I have also perfected the rapid movement of my hand from the entry slot to
the exit slot so my hand arrives there *before* the ticket it returned,
lessening the chances of someone taking it from me except by extreme force.

It's a shame that the LUL barriers take the ticket away and then return it
to you. If you swiped your own ticket, it would never leave your hand. I
presume swiping was considerd but found to be too unreliable. It also
doesn't allow a ticket to be retained if it is no longer valid because
you've finished your journey.
I am usually pretty careful once I insert my ticket into the gate .
While I am in possession of my ticket I can be responsible for it. Whan
I am not in possesssion of my ticket ie when it is in the gate it is
LUL's responsibility. That is why I hold them liable in this instance
for not managing the overcrowding. They did seem to indicate that this
is a fairly common occurance although in 15 years I have never come
anywhere close to this before.

You appear to have got into trouble because you inserted your ticket
before the person in front of you had passed through the gate.

That's your fault.

--
James Farrar
. @gmail.com

T.S. Cordiner wrote:

So my question is, is the MTA putting its passengers in danger, or are
the gates of the NYC system very different from London's (they appear
more dangerous to me, but beyond cries of "health and safety" I am
unsure exactly what the argument for the gateline staff is anyway), or
are these "health and safety" reasons for manning gatelines actually a
very expensive policy decision with little benefit to passengers or the
commerical operator?

It's not really a H+S issue. The London system is not self-contained, in
the way that other cities' metros are. There is still a surreal mix of
tickets,ticketing,fares,routings,interchanges. (Though it's a lot
better than in the 1980s).

With this, the possibility of not being able to get in/out of a station
with a ticket that may or may not be valid is a very real one.

Richard [in PE12]

David of Broadway wrote:
is only open rush hours, when an S/A is on duty. At other times I
have to walk an extra block on the street to the full-time entrance,
even though I have no use for the S/A. (In fact, several years ago I
got into frequent arguments with the S/A there about the exact opening
time of that entrance. The sign said 6:30, but after several
arguments it came to light that the S/A's schedule said 6:35, and I
needed to catch a train that arrived between those times.)

Just as a matter of interest, why do you need to get a train at
between 06:30 and 06:35 ? Couldn't you get one at say 06:37
and use the nearer entrance ? Can't say I've ever gone to a metro
station with a specific five-minute window in mind: I just get the
first appropriate train.


Richard [in PE12]

I am sure there is someone in there somewhere. If not HMRI would be very
interested.
Take times next time it happens, post it and i'll look into it. I only say
that as i'm confident if i ask they will tell me its all ok.......

Mal

"Chris!" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mal wrote:

The gates must be manned. But they can be monitored from a ticket office.
They have a plunger in there also. If your ticket doesn't work you are
expected to go to the excess fare window, show your ticket and the person
in
the office will let you out. Not through the side gate.
The 5 second rule is also if someone gets caught in a gate....child
perhaps.
Monitoring can be done remotely. Staff don't like it but thats the way
LUL
say is OK after risk assesment.

Like I said in the OP - there are often no visible staff at East
Putney. Ticket office closed, gates shut, no one responding to the
information button. Hence it isn't possible to go to the excess fare
window

Mal wrote:

I am sure there is someone in there somewhere. If not HMRI would be very
interested.
Take times next time it happens, post it and i'll look into it. I only say
that as i'm confident if i ask they will tell me its all ok.......

There may well be someone in there somewhere but when the curtains down
there is no way of contacting them - the glass is so thick that banging
on it does nothing and when I had a problem in the past the information
button was ignored. I have complained about the lack of staff at this
station before (e.g. when I was the only person on the platform and
there was a huge unattended bag I had to wait until I got further down
the line to report it)

When was last time?

"Chris!" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mal wrote:

I am sure there is someone in there somewhere. If not HMRI would be very
interested.
Take times next time it happens, post it and i'll look into it. I only
say
that as i'm confident if i ask they will tell me its all ok.......

There may well be someone in there somewhere but when the curtains down
there is no way of contacting them - the glass is so thick that banging
on it does nothing and when I had a problem in the past the information
button was ignored. I have complained about the lack of staff at this
station before (e.g. when I was the only person on the platform and
there was a huge unattended bag I had to wait until I got further down
the line to report it)

T.S. Cordiner typed:
I am trying to understand what the real issue is and, other
than the flat fare which I accept is a big difference, how NYC
manages to operate a subway safely without the gateline staff.

And the real issue keeps getting explained to you! NYC manages to
operate without gateline staff because, as in Paris, the exit gates
don't require a ticket. This is not the case in London, where in order
to combat fraud in connection with a fairly complex fare structure, the
exit gates require a ticket to open them. This means that situations
can arise where passengers' health and safety could be endangered if
they were unable to exit from a station, or unable to do so sufficiently
quickly in an emergency. Is it clear to you now?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)