"T.S. Cordiner" writes:
So my question is, is the MTA putting its passengers in danger, or are
the gates of the NYC system very different from London's...?

Sure. New York is a flat-fare system with the fare charged on entry, so
the exit gates don't need to be capable of stopping people from leaving.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "I may be ranting, but I'm right!"
-- Wojeck: Out of the Fire

Mark Brader wrote:
"T.S. Cordiner" writes:

So my question is, is the MTA putting its passengers in danger, or are
the gates of the NYC system very different from London's...?


Sure. New York is a flat-fare system with the fare charged on entry, so
the exit gates don't need to be capable of stopping people from leaving.

So all those staff are there just to let people out when (as I
acknowledge it frequently does) one's ticket stops working? I would have
thought it more efficient to have fare charged on entry, let people out
the other end and save rather a lot of money on staff. Is this just a
small part of gate line duties? I can think of providing information and
assistance, but that doesn't fall into the "health and safety" argument.
What's the heatlh and safety argument for gate-line staff that means
London needs them and NYC doesn't?

Thanks,

Tom

Tom Cordiner and I (Mark Brader) wrote:
So my question is, is the MTA putting its passengers in danger, or
are the gates of the NYC system very different from London's...?

Sure. New York is a flat-fare system with the fare charged on entry, so
the exit gates don't need to be capable of stopping people from leaving.

So all those staff are there just to let people out when (as I
acknowledge it frequently does) one's ticket stops working?

You didn't ask about staffing *levels*, and I'm not commenting on
that. You asked why there have to be any staff, and the reason is
to let people out in case their ticket stops working *or* in case
the station has to be evacuated and there isn't time for tickets
to be checked.

I would have thought it more efficient to have fare charged on entry,
let people out the other end and save rather a lot of money on staff.

Of course it is -- but that requires a flat fare, which is considered
unacceptable. The other way is open stations, of course, but that
has its own problems. (Please change the subject line if you want
to debate these questions.)

Is this just a
small part of gate line duties? I can think of providing information and
assistance, but that doesn't fall into the "health and safety" argument.

Indeed. Compare air travel, where the number of cabin crew is
determined on "health and safety" grounds even though on a typical
flight they only spend a few minutes on that.

What's the heatlh and safety argument for gate-line staff that means
London needs them and NYC doesn't?

With the fare system used in London, the exit gates do need to be
capable of stopping people from leaving. Hence there has to be an
emergency override for this, which means a human.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | There is no step function between "safe" and "unsafe".
| -- Jeff Janes

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Martin Underwood wrote:
T.S. Cordiner wrote in
:

I am unsure exactly what the argument for the gateline staff is anyway

One very important function that gateline staff perform is letting out
passengers whose tickets refuse to open the gates. Almost every time I
go up to London, I find that somewhere during my travels around the
underground I'll encounter a station whose gates won't recognise my ticket,
either on entry or else on exit.

And we'll have no jokes about the effect of my magnetic personality on the
magnetic stripe on the ticket ;-)

Slightly different subject but I am pretty ****ed this morning having
had my weekly travel card stolen from the gates yesterday evening at
Euston. I could have been generous and said that somebody took it by
mistake but I believe they knew that they had taken the wrong ticket.
Euston was mayhem at about 5pm with one gate out of action and with
people barging and pushing in at the next gate. The resulting mayhem
caused many of the tickets to be rejected which made the the chaos
even worse. At this point somebody barged in front and left with my
tickect.
Only after a fight nearly started with some impatient bugger behind me
nearly started did the LU staff start to manage the chaos and throw the
side gate open and let every body out without checks. My ticket gone,
LU's repsonse, it happens all the time, what do you expect us to do
about it. Well manage the overcrowding caused by your inability to have
all the gates working a little better for a start.

Kevin

So....someone stole something from you worth a lot of money and you blame
someone else?? Its your ticket, its worth a fortune, look after it.
However there is a procedure for issuing a new one which staff should do.

Mal

wrote in message
ups.com...

Martin Underwood wrote:
T.S. Cordiner wrote in
:

I am unsure exactly what the argument for the gateline staff is anyway

One very important function that gateline staff perform is letting out
passengers whose tickets refuse to open the gates. Almost every time I
go up to London, I find that somewhere during my travels around the
underground I'll encounter a station whose gates won't recognise my
ticket,
either on entry or else on exit.

And we'll have no jokes about the effect of my magnetic personality on
the
magnetic stripe on the ticket ;-)

Slightly different subject but I am pretty ****ed this morning having
had my weekly travel card stolen from the gates yesterday evening at
Euston. I could have been generous and said that somebody took it by
mistake but I believe they knew that they had taken the wrong ticket.
Euston was mayhem at about 5pm with one gate out of action and with
people barging and pushing in at the next gate. The resulting mayhem
caused many of the tickets to be rejected which made the the chaos
even worse. At this point somebody barged in front and left with my
tickect.
Only after a fight nearly started with some impatient bugger behind me
nearly started did the LU staff start to manage the chaos and throw the
side gate open and let every body out without checks. My ticket gone,
LU's repsonse, it happens all the time, what do you expect us to do
about it. Well manage the overcrowding caused by your inability to have
all the gates working a little better for a start.

Kevin

The gates must be manned. But they can be monitored from a ticket office.
They have a plunger in there also. If your ticket doesn't work you are
expected to go to the excess fare window, show your ticket and the person in
the office will let you out. Not through the side gate.
The 5 second rule is also if someone gets caught in a gate....child perhaps.
Monitoring can be done remotely. Staff don't like it but thats the way LUL
say is OK after risk assesment.

Mal

"T.S. Cordiner" wrote in message
...
Mal wrote:

IT's a legal requirement that the gate line be manned - I'd use the
emergency button.

Not technically correct. It's a requirement for the gates to be
monitored,
which can be remotely, and the emergency plunger activated.

Hi,

I've noted this gate manning issue before (although it didn't seem too
well enforced at Stamford Brook in the evenings that I could *see*) but am
a little confused by the real issue. Do the gates need to be manned?

Having moved to New York this summer, I am interested that despite being a
daily commuter I've not spoken to one member of MTA staff and apart from a
few ticket clerks (with big signs listing the tickets one has to buy from
the machine--which is pretty much all of them!) in their cubicles, the
subway seems to run fine without all the gate line staff milling around.
Indeed, as a fairly regular tourist to New York I had the view that the
tube was a much better, safer, cleaner, more efficient mode than the NYC
subway, but I have to say my 25 minute daily commute on the 1 line from
the Village to the UWS is a pleasure and we seem to manage fine without
any gate line staff (next train departure boards would be nice though.)

So my question is, is the MTA putting its passengers in danger, or are the
gates of the NYC system very different from London's (they appear more
dangerous to me, but beyond cries of "health and safety" I am unsure
exactly what the argument for the gateline staff is anyway), or are these
"health and safety" reasons for manning gatelines actually a very
expensive policy decision with little benefit to passengers or the
commerical operator?

Any expert knowledge welcomed,

Tom

--
T.S.Cordiner
Columbia University, New York City.

Mark Brader wrote:
Tom Cordiner and I (Mark Brader) wrote:

So my question is, is the MTA putting its passengers in danger, or
are the gates of the NYC system very different from London's...?


Sure. New York is a flat-fare system with the fare charged on entry, so
the exit gates don't need to be capable of stopping people from leaving.



So all those staff are there just to let people out when (as I
acknowledge it frequently does) one's ticket stops working?


You didn't ask about staffing *levels*, and I'm not commenting on
that. You asked why there have to be any staff, and the reason is
to let people out in case their ticket stops working *or* in case
the station has to be evacuated and there isn't time for tickets
to be checked.

Not quite, I asked why people bleat "health and safety" when justifying
gateline staff; I am perfectly willing to accept *other* reasons for the
staff being there (but those are policy not legal health and safety
requirements). I have no agenda other than being genuinely curious as to
what the health and safety reasons are.

There's been an exponential rise in "health and safety" as a blanket
reason for anything and everything in the UK in recent years (humorous
examples such as the cheese rolling tradition being banned come to mind)
but I am trying to understand what the real issue is and, other than the
flat fare which I accept is a big difference, how NYC manages to operate
a subway safely without the gateline staff.

Mal wrote:
So....someone stole something from you worth a lot of money and you blame
someone else?? Its your ticket, its worth a fortune, look after it.
However there is a procedure for issuing a new one which staff should do.

Mal

I blame LUL because they failed to manage the chaos that was created
because at least one gate was out of action. I am required to put my
ticket in the gate to be scanned , from that point on it is out of my
control. To be fair if the daft woman in front of me hadn't actually
stepped back out of the gate to allow a pushy f**king girl to barge he
way through (she was probabley travelling without a ticket) then I
would have been in a position to stop somebody swiping my ticket out of
the machine. The woman in front of me probabley picked up my ticket so
I hopethat she had an annual first class ticket taken. It would make
her think twice before allowing somebody to push in front.
Why is LUL's inability to manage a situation my fault.
After initially doing nothing and sending me on my way and Silverlink
saying they needed something from LUL before allowing me to proceed, I
returned to the LU station and created merry hell. The station manager
did then give me a replacement travel card but I did need to raise
merry hell to get it.

Kevin

wrote in
:

Mal wrote:
So....someone stole something from you worth a lot of money and you
blame someone else?? Its your ticket, its worth a fortune, look
after it. However there is a procedure for issuing a new one which
staff should do.

Mal

I blame LUL because they failed to manage the chaos that was created
because at least one gate was out of action. I am required to put my
ticket in the gate to be scanned , from that point on it is out of my
control. To be fair if the daft woman in front of me hadn't actually
stepped back out of the gate to allow a pushy f**king girl to barge he
way through (she was probabley travelling without a ticket) then I
would have been in a position to stop somebody swiping my ticket out
of the machine. The woman in front of me probabley picked up my
ticket so I hopethat she had an annual first class ticket taken. It
would make her think twice before allowing somebody to push in front.
Why is LUL's inability to manage a situation my fault.
After initially doing nothing and sending me on my way and Silverlink
saying they needed something from LUL before allowing me to proceed, I
returned to the LU station and created merry hell. The station manager
did then give me a replacement travel card but I did need to raise
merry hell to get it.

When I'm going up to London, I always pay by credit card and keep the
receipt separate from the ticket so I have independent proof that I bought
the ticket and of its ticket number. So far I've never lost or had stolen a
ticket, but there's always a first time...

I have also perfected the rapid movement of my hand from the entry slot to
the exit slot so my hand arrives there *before* the ticket it returned,
lessening the chances of someone taking it from me except by extreme force.

It's a shame that the LUL barriers take the ticket away and then return it
to you. If you swiped your own ticket, it would never leave your hand. I
presume swiping was considerd but found to be too unreliable. It also
doesn't allow a ticket to be retained if it is no longer valid because
you've finished your journey.

Mal wrote:

The gates must be manned. But they can be monitored from a ticket office.
They have a plunger in there also. If your ticket doesn't work you are
expected to go to the excess fare window, show your ticket and the person in
the office will let you out. Not through the side gate.
The 5 second rule is also if someone gets caught in a gate....child perhaps.
Monitoring can be done remotely. Staff don't like it but thats the way LUL
say is OK after risk assesment.

Like I said in the OP - there are often no visible staff at East
Putney. Ticket office closed, gates shut, no one responding to the
information button. Hence it isn't possible to go to the excess fare
window